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The royal family

Do you think as Camilla as the queen ?

531 replies

Rainbow321 · 09/11/2024 17:40

Hear me out , I have no problem with Camilla and never thought I would never see her as ( way back when ) as Charles wife when they married , my opinion,was they married and can rightly call herself as Duchess.
However , what I don't understand that when Queen Elizabeth was alive , her husband , Prince Phillip was always known as just that and never seen / addressed as King . Why is Camilla our queen when Phillip was never our king ? I'm confused .

OP posts:
BarbaraHoward · 12/11/2024 18:44

Markedlymiffed45 · 12/11/2024 18:38

Apologies BarbaraHoward

My mistake for misinterpreting your post!

We are in complete agreement; even down to having some sympathy for the individuals involved!

No worries, I probably wasn't clear. Smile

winter8090 · 12/11/2024 19:05

I like Camilla.

She is the queen, or queen consort as the official title goes but I don't think of her as queen.

But I wouldn't have thought of Philip as king.

I guess I identify with the heir only.

IhateHPSDeaneCnt · 12/11/2024 22:39

I'm not a Royalist. I loathe all the free loading tw@ts. When it comes to her it really gets my goat - all the shite about her not being awarding the title has been ignored and now called 'Queen'. I was no Diana lover; she was a brood mare - but she did fall in love with her Step Grandmother's 'starry eyed' idea of a Prince. Where on earth would he have found a 19 year old virgin with (almost) impeccable background? Despite mother being a bolter because husband was vile. Must have been a huge shock after 13 dates and a pounce to find out he was a petulant twat. Camilla had a 'reputation' (allegedly). I can't believe it when she swans around wearing jewellery - previously worn by first wife. Andrew, ex-wife and unfortunate children should be chucked out into the real world; current husbands would leg it.

OneTealSloth · 13/11/2024 13:53

No. I read or hear “The Queen” and Queen Elizabeth II comes to mind. Frankly, I don’t think Queen Camilla will live long enough for it to stick.

I believe it will stick for the future Queen Catherine.

quantumbutterfly · 16/11/2024 07:46

MayaPinion · 10/11/2024 12:35

LOL, no, but then I can't get my head round old Charlie being king either. Every time I hear 'King Charles' on the news I always perk up my ears to hear if a spaniel has done something clever. Am always disappointed.

Well he's cami's spaniel so I suppose you're not far wrong .

Shodan · 16/11/2024 08:02

Similar to PPs, I think of her as 'a' queen, not The Queen. The Queen was Elizabeth.

I've just managed to get used to King Charles (rather than Dara's King Prince Charles).

William and Catherine are 'Thefuturekingandqueen'. Kind of a joint title.

PullTheBricksDown · 17/11/2024 09:37

JewelleryCat · 09/11/2024 21:29

According to Google, she’d be known as Queen Dowager. I guess a bit like how in Downton Abbey, Violet was known as Dowager Countess

Lots of posts about the Queen Mother being known as that because otherwise there'd have been two queens called Elizabeth. I have read somewhere that she should have become the Dowager Queen Elizabeth but she really disliked it and didn't think it sounded important enough so invented a new title for herself as Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. That way she kept the main character sounding bit at the front 😁 often although of course this got turned into just 'The Queen Mother' in day to day use.

Like many others I've got no issue with Camilla, and her domestic violence work is very welcome, but every time I hear 'The Queen' it's Elizabeth II that comes to mind. To be honest, I doubt I will have got used to it before it changes again given that Camilla is mid 70s. And then we'll probably have 'The Queen, Kate Middleton' since the papers STILL refer to her that way. 🙄

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 11:21

Yes that's true - Dowager Queen would have been the term normally used. I wouldn't have wanted to be called that either tbf! Especially because she wasn't elderly when the King died.

OnlyWhenILaugh · 17/11/2024 13:17

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 11:21

Yes that's true - Dowager Queen would have been the term normally used. I wouldn't have wanted to be called that either tbf! Especially because she wasn't elderly when the King died.

Surely it's a designation more than a title? Just as consort and regnant are?
All previous widows of King's were Queen Dowagers but the term wasn't used as far as I'm aware. Edward VII's widow remained Queen Alexandra and George V's widow remained Queen Mary. So remaining Queen Elizabeth seems reasonable.
Whether or not The Queen Mother objected or it was simply more sensible to use the courtesy title of Queen Mother I don't know.

OnlyWhenILaugh · 17/11/2024 13:23

It makes more sense using Dowager when it's for a Duchess because their first names are not used. So Duchess of Toffsville and Dowager Duchess of Toffsville differentiates.

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 13:34

I think it would have been used sometimes in articles and such but I imagine it would've been much more likely to just be Queen Mary (or whoever) most of the time,

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 13:35

Yes I think you're right on that about Duchesses.

CarolinaInTheMorning · 17/11/2024 14:35

As others have pointed out, there has never been an official title of Queen Consort in Britain. Queen consort as a designation is to distinguish from a queen regnant. So Camilla is The Queen, just as her predecessor consorts were.

One of the reasons for husbands of queens regnant generally not being called King is the historical notion that King is a higher title than Queen. In many European countries where the Salic law prevailed, only men could inherit the throne and so queens in their own right were non-existent or very rare. And even in countries that allowed women to reign, men took precedence in the succession until very recently (and still do in some).

There is some precedent in Britain for the husband of a queen regnant to be given the title of king. Philip of Spain, the husband of Mary I of England was named co-ruler when they married and called King of England. He spent most of his time in Spain, though, and never really functioned as a ruler in England. And his title did not survive Mary, who was succeeded by her sister Elizabeth. Henry, Lord Darnley, the husband of Mary Queen of Scots, was called King Consort of Scotland as a courtesy.

William of Orange was made co-ruler with his wife Mary II and thus became King William, and his title survived his wife’s death. Mary II had a superior claim to the throne as the daughter of James II and VII (William was the son of James’s sister), and William's secondary position in the succession was recognized in the settlement which provided that if Mary died first and William remarried, any potential children with a second wife would be after Queen Mary’s sister, Anne, in the succession, thus making her, after Mary's death, the only female Heir Apparent in British history.

It's certainly possible with more egalitarian rules about succession, the notion that King is a higher title can change and male consorts can be called King in some countries. With more queens regnant on the horizon all over Europe (Sweden, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Spain) and a move to have more equality between the sexes in these matters, we might see King or King Consort used by courtesy for the husbands of some of these future queens.

RancidOldHag · 17/11/2024 20:22

PullTheBricksDown · 17/11/2024 09:37

Lots of posts about the Queen Mother being known as that because otherwise there'd have been two queens called Elizabeth. I have read somewhere that she should have become the Dowager Queen Elizabeth but she really disliked it and didn't think it sounded important enough so invented a new title for herself as Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. That way she kept the main character sounding bit at the front 😁 often although of course this got turned into just 'The Queen Mother' in day to day use.

Like many others I've got no issue with Camilla, and her domestic violence work is very welcome, but every time I hear 'The Queen' it's Elizabeth II that comes to mind. To be honest, I doubt I will have got used to it before it changes again given that Camilla is mid 70s. And then we'll probably have 'The Queen, Kate Middleton' since the papers STILL refer to her that way. 🙄

It wasn't a new title.

It's an alternate title for a dowager queen that been in use on and off for several hundred years

British queen mothers - Wikipedia

CathyorClaire · 17/11/2024 20:38

Elizabeth wasn't even supposed to be Queen.

Given Uncle Abdication never had children she was always going to be Queen albeit some 20 years later than actually transpired.

CarolinaInTheMorning · 17/11/2024 21:01

often although of course this got turned into just 'The Queen Mother' in day to day use.

Actually, in day-to-day use within the Royal Family, she was referred to as Queen Elizabeth and her daughter as The Queen.

CarolinaInTheMorning · 17/11/2024 21:14

CathyorClaire · 17/11/2024 20:38

Elizabeth wasn't even supposed to be Queen.

Given Uncle Abdication never had children she was always going to be Queen albeit some 20 years later than actually transpired.

I don't think it was expected that she would be Queen when she was born. Uncle David was still single then, and despite his colorful personal life, I think it was assumed that he would marry appropriately and produce heirs. Also, there was certainly a hopeful expectation that the then Duchess of York would produce other children and that at least one of them would be a boy.

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 21:29

True, Queen Mother wasn't a new title.

OnlyWhenILaugh · 17/11/2024 21:30

CathyorClaire · 17/11/2024 20:38

Elizabeth wasn't even supposed to be Queen.

Given Uncle Abdication never had children she was always going to be Queen albeit some 20 years later than actually transpired.

Eh? She wasn't "always going to be queen" - except in hindsight

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 21:30

Yeah that wasn't a thing. She only became queen because of the abdication.

AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras · 17/11/2024 21:33

(by which I mean the ex-King could very well have had children had he married another woman. Of course it may not have happened, but it wasn't a given that Elizabeth would be Queen)

HoppityBun · 17/11/2024 21:33

I mean, many people think of them as Camilla and King Prince Charles.

JewelleryCat · 17/11/2024 21:40

RancidOldHag · 17/11/2024 20:22

It wasn't a new title.

It's an alternate title for a dowager queen that been in use on and off for several hundred years

British queen mothers - Wikipedia

Thank you for this, that’s something I never knew. I thought she just chose it to differentiate from her daughter, not that it was an alternate name for Queen Dowager

Needanewname42 · 17/11/2024 21:44

RancidOldHag · 17/11/2024 20:22

It wasn't a new title.

It's an alternate title for a dowager queen that been in use on and off for several hundred years

British queen mothers - Wikipedia

Queen Mary was known as just that.

There are photos of the three Queens together. It's probably unusual for there to be three Queens alive at the same time.

Given the Crown historically passed to Sons before Daughters, The Queen would be a dowager Queens DIL rather than Queens Mother. So I can't think of when else in history Queen Mother would have been used, maybe Victoria's Mother?

CarolinaInTheMorning · 17/11/2024 21:52

Needanewname42 · 17/11/2024 21:44

Queen Mary was known as just that.

There are photos of the three Queens together. It's probably unusual for there to be three Queens alive at the same time.

Given the Crown historically passed to Sons before Daughters, The Queen would be a dowager Queens DIL rather than Queens Mother. So I can't think of when else in history Queen Mother would have been used, maybe Victoria's Mother?

Victoria's mother was never Queen so she couldn't be Queen Mother. And the vast majority of Queen Mothers have been mothers of Kings.

Two things necessary to be a Queen Mother: first, she has to have been a Queen; second, she has to be the mother of the monarch.

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