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The royal family
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Getthethrowonthesofa · 14/01/2024 21:47

Angrycat2768 · 14/01/2024 17:38

Honestly it's more embarrassing that 'Defence chiefs ' are wasting their time getting their knickers in a twist about an award given to Prince Harry that has also been given to someone who played a fighter pilot in a film!

That’s not why cruise got it, he’s a pilot, all of them are. Freeman got his licence at 65 and has 3 planes. Cruise has many planes and is a multi engine pilot, and ford is both fixed wing and helicopter pilot, all three, and also travolta, are serious pilots, who actually fly regularly.

BrittleVeneers · 14/01/2024 23:25

From what I understand, awards have also been given to ex pilots from Vietnam War and the Iraq War. They haven’t advanced in their professions either. So awards go to aviation CEOs, movie star pilots, celebrities, astronauts, and ex service personnel (maybe others as well, I don’t know). What they do have in common seems to be flying. Harry’s award has something to do with the children’s charity part. But I’m not digging that far. I don’t really understand it fully and have no desire to. The UK tabloids going to UK ex service personnel (no how high up their rank) seems a bit silly. What would they know of US awards? Really? How deep is their knowledge about aviation awards of another country? I’ve heard now from a few Americans, and the British tabloids seem to be deliberately misleading people. Big surprise.

As we learned from Harry’s ex flight instructor, the tabloids were guilty of presenting to the instructor a slanted version of Harry’s comments designed to elicit a certain response. He spoke critically of Harry in his response. This response was published. A few days later, when the flight instructor found out what Harry had really written in his book about lessons, he spoke out publicly about how the tabloids had misinformed him and how angry he was about that. That bit didn’t get the same extensive coverage though. Of course.

The tabloids seem to operate a bit like those jokesters who set up the three royal commentators to give their opinion of the OW interview - and they were recorded a few days before the actual televising of the interview - bullshitting that they’d seen it and having opinions of all sorts. Hysterically funny, but food for thought. Tabloids set people up in order to get the story they want to print.

Echoes here of the Martin Bashir interview with Diana. And that was the bbc. Does anyone think the tabloids are publishing fair and honest takes on Harry? I don’t. Especially given that he is suing them.

notimagain · 15/01/2024 07:43

@BrittleVeneers

From what I understand, awards have also been given to ex pilots from Vietnam War and the Iraq War.

They have..but I'd be interested to see if you can find any of the "Legends" that got the award simply and only on the basis of two routine (if there is such a thing) short operational tours and then dropped aviation as an interest or income stream completely...

A fairly typical honoree from the Vietnam era is somebody like Dave Greschke..did the fighter pilot bit but after that a whole lot more..

https://living-legends-of-aviation.myshopify.com/pages/david-greschke

DAVID GRESCHKE

  David Allen Greschke (born May 2, 1946), callsign “Bulldog,” is a retired Air Force Fighter Pilot (22 years), having flown the F-4C/D/E Phantom and the F-15A/C Eagle as an Instructor Pilot, Functional Check Flight (FCF) pilot, and Flight Examiner, an...

https://living-legends-of-aviation.myshopify.com/pages/david-greschke

MrsFinkelstein · 15/01/2024 07:45

The awards seem to be a mixture of genuine awards sprinkled with some celebs to give them publicity. And the Vietnam & Iraq vets (as far as I can see) who were awarded it, did some pretty heroic flying under fire - regardless of their rank.

I follow a few Americans on SM, and have seen quite a lot of comments on other US sites - there's just as many Americans as puzzled by Harry getting the award as there are Brits. They do seem more accepting of this being a "pay to play" deal than we are - because that seems to be the norm there.

Absolutely no question that the tabloids stir things - and that goes for worldwide. The US tabloids are definitely just as bad as the UK.

notimagain · 15/01/2024 07:51

@BrittleVeneers

Another ex Fighter pilot legend here:

https://living-legends-of-aviation.myshopify.com/pages/chesley-sully-sullenberger

Can you now maybe see the problem many people in aviation are having with Harry getting this award?

I think folks in the know were already struggling with the Lauren Sanchez nomination but to her credit she has an aviation related media company, she still flies and is planning on a hop in one of Jeffs rocket so she has skin and interest in aviation...

To many Harry's nomination is one step too far but it's certainly produced a lot of publicity for the organisers, which no doubt was the aim.

CHESLEY "SULLY" SULLENBERGER

  Chesley Burnett Sullenberger III (born January 23, 1951), better known as Sully, is an American retired Air Force fighter pilot, airline captain, and is U.S. Ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization. He is best known for his role a...

https://living-legends-of-aviation.myshopify.com/pages/chesley-sully-sullenberger

Getthethrowonthesofa · 15/01/2024 08:08

To be fair the celeb pilots who have got it, like cruise or freeman are proper aviation nuts. They fly themselves about regularly and have multiple planes Christ, travolta even has a proper runway at his home. He literally looks out over it, it looks like living at an airport.

harry doesn’t even come close to these peoples aviation achievements,

he failed the written exam 3 times running, then apparently passed it and got his licence, but was never ever permitted to actually fly by the army. Which in itself is curious. His male relatives who achieved rhe same were actually piloting. He’s the only one never allowed it.

Which made me wonder if he was just given it as a pr stunt, save his blushes, on the condition he never flew. He was a gunner only, maybe capable of taking over if the pilot was in trouble, but that appears never to have happened.

so I can see why they’d give it to the likes of travolta or cruise, brings some publicity and they are very capable and active pilots. But harry isn’t even close to that category.

notimagain · 15/01/2024 08:33

Getthethrowonthesofa · 15/01/2024 08:08

To be fair the celeb pilots who have got it, like cruise or freeman are proper aviation nuts. They fly themselves about regularly and have multiple planes Christ, travolta even has a proper runway at his home. He literally looks out over it, it looks like living at an airport.

harry doesn’t even come close to these peoples aviation achievements,

he failed the written exam 3 times running, then apparently passed it and got his licence, but was never ever permitted to actually fly by the army. Which in itself is curious. His male relatives who achieved rhe same were actually piloting. He’s the only one never allowed it.

Which made me wonder if he was just given it as a pr stunt, save his blushes, on the condition he never flew. He was a gunner only, maybe capable of taking over if the pilot was in trouble, but that appears never to have happened.

so I can see why they’d give it to the likes of travolta or cruise, brings some publicity and they are very capable and active pilots. But harry isn’t even close to that category.

You've made some fair points in there but...

he failed the written exam 3 times running, then apparently passed it and got his licence, but was never ever permitted to actually fly by the army

Nope, that's a myth.

For starters despite being qualified up the ying-yang mil aviators in the UK don't (or didn't) hold paper licences, that's usually a civilian thing.

They do however do lots of training, just like the civvies, and that includes written exams prior to moving on to flying. I have it from "someone who was there" that Harry passed his wings course at RAF Shawbury without any special help..so it's a matter of fact he was a fully qualified helicopter pilot.

He was a gunner only, maybe capable of taking over if the pilot was in trouble

Nope, again.

On his first tour he was gunner/co-pilot and the whole co-pilot terminology is maybe causing confusion again.

A co-pilot is a fully qualified pilot.

As I understand it the Apache has dual controls so it can be flown from both seats. The front seat occupant's prime role on a flight is as gunner but they are usually (and certainly in Harry's case) also a fully qualified pilot...not some lesser qualified "pilot assistant" or "pilot qualified for emergency use only".😮

notimagain · 15/01/2024 09:10

I have to say whilst I don't think for one minute Harry should accept the award I'm a bit uncomfortable about some of the criticism I'm seeing in/on the MSM.

A lot of it seems to be coming from some of the rent a gob talking heads who wouldn't know a Boeing from an Airbus and whose only interaction with aviators, generic, is whinging if their G&T gets spilt in turbulence...

Objectively military flying training is pretty tough and there are no attendance courses. The courses are hard graft, there's a lot of pressure and a lot of people fail. Getting awarded military wings is a big deal.

It's on record Harry did qualify as a military pilot, he went on to fly as a pilot/gunner, then passed the Apache commanders couse, and acted as a pilot/commander...and then (AFAIK) stopped flying as a pilot.

In the context of the award I think it's maybe fair enough for some in the MSM to criticise Harry for the things he hasn't done that might have made him worthy of the "Legend" tag.

OTOH it's completely wrong of the MSM to criticise, belittle or trivialise the little bit of aviating PH did do...

MaturingCheeseball · 15/01/2024 09:25

I’ve said previously that Harry’s aviation experience would make it fine to present an award, but to receive one? Nope.

BrittleVeneers · 15/01/2024 09:32

Angelina Jolie is an awardee. Also, William Shatner is an awardee. He was the lead actor in Star Trek. A talented actor too - has made some very good tv in the past. Also he played a lawyer, as well as sitting at the controls of Starship Enterprise. (He’s been to space on one of Benzos’ rockets. At age 91. They should give him all sorts of awards just for that).

But really, this is a non profit organisation aimed at encouraging kids in aviation.

‘The intelligencer ‘ actually had the right tone I think.
^^
“The Living Legends of Aviation Awards are produced by the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy, a nonprofit whose mission is to spark children’s interest in aviation. The press release says the awards are meant to highlight people who have made various contributions to the field, including “pilots who have become celebrities and celebrities who have become pilots.” Previous honorees include William Shatner, Angelina Jolie, Kenny G, Morgan Freeman, Tom Cruise, Harrison Ford, and John Travolta. In 2019, Amazon and Blue Origin founder Jeff Bezos was presented with the Jeff Bezos Freedom’s Wings Award for “advancing the principles of freedom in business and his personal endeavors.” This year, his fiancée, Lauren Sanchez, is being honored for founding an aerial film-and-production company and planning to take part in an all-female Blue Origin space flight later this year.

It’s unclear if Harry will even show up to accept his award in person. But no one should be upset about him stealing the honor from a more deserving celebrity pilot … except maybe Michael Dorn, a pilot who played Starfleet’s first Klingon officer on Star Trek, who seems overdue for one of these awards.”

The last paragraph sets the right tone in my opinion.

One thing for sure, if he does turn up he’ll be criticised for it. But if he doesn’t turn up he’ll be dragged over the coals for letting down the children. (You read it here first)

I agree (reservedly) with the poster who says US tabloids are as bad as UK ones. One huge media empire that I know of - Murdoch Media is, in my opinion. doing a lot to wreck UK, US and Australian culture and society and pushes a very questionable agenda. One example, Think the Jeremy Clarkson ‘article’ published by The Sun, I use the term ‘article’ loosely. I’m not sure I’ve ever read a more vomit inducing piece of excrement written about a woman published in the UK paper The Sun.

As I said, but was ignored, tabloids have a history of getting the quotes they want by presenting erroneous & misleading versions of things to the people they are seeking quotes from, and they print the response. Often, later, and hardly noticed, the people who they did this to speak up and say they were misled. Just like Harry’s ex flight instructor.

For those denouncing Harry’s ability to fly even as ‘just’ a gunner co - pilot (and a pp has corrected that downgrading) does anyone honestly think they’d have put the Queen’s grandchild in a multi million dollar piece of complicated machinery valued at $39 million dollars at the time - latest versions $52 million dollars - with one other military pilot and risked death for him and the pilot? C’mon. Plus I’ve read his book. I’ve read about him learning to fly the Apache attack helicopter. It’s very descriptive and enlightening.

BrittleVeneers · 15/01/2024 09:35

I’ve said previously that Harry’s aviation experience would make it fine to present an award, but to receive one? Nope.

I think it depends on the type of award.

Mylovelygreendress · 15/01/2024 09:41

“For those denouncing Harry’s ability to fly even as ‘just’ a gunner co - pilot (and a pp has corrected that downgrading) does anyone honestly think they’d have put the Queen’s grandchild in a multi million dollar piece of complicated machinery valued at $39 million dollars at the time - latest versions $52 million dollars - with one other military pilot and risked death for him and the pilot? C’mon. Plus I’ve read his book. I’ve read about him learning to fly the Apache attack helicopter. It’s very descriptive and enlightening.”

Can I just point out that the late Queen’s son who was at that time second in line , flew helicopters in the Falklands War ? No special treatment for him.
And NO I am not defending his personal life , I am simply stating a fact .

CathyorClaire · 15/01/2024 09:44

ford is both fixed wing and helicopter pilot

Hasn't he been involved in a few 'incidents'?

Kind of reduces the gong to looking like a sleb back-slapping exercise. Awarding it to Harold isn't going to improve that.

Uricon2 · 15/01/2024 09:46

I think that's fair @notimagain , Harry put in the effort to do something most people can't and many (myself included) wouldn't be able to with any amount of instruction.

If William was up for this award rather than Harry I'd be saying exactly the same things if he accepted it. This does not in any way diminish his training and valuable work in search and rescue and air ambulance flying. It's just an acceptance that the word "Prince" in front of your name and the fact you can fly doesn't make you a living legend of aviation. Most of the other celebrity awardees from film etc do actually seem to have a very keen and ongoing interest in flying, from what I can see and I'm not sure Harry does (happy to be corrected about this)

EasternStandard · 15/01/2024 09:48

CathyorClaire · 15/01/2024 09:44

ford is both fixed wing and helicopter pilot

Hasn't he been involved in a few 'incidents'?

Kind of reduces the gong to looking like a sleb back-slapping exercise. Awarding it to Harold isn't going to improve that.

It looks like it’s meant to be for sleb endorsement

Others will be able to do what Harry does, for longer or harder situations but it’s his name that means the award goes to him

I can see why the title gets the response, even if he did the courses below

BrittleVeneers · 15/01/2024 09:56

OTOH it's completely wrong of the MSM to criticise, belittle or trivialise the little bit of aviating PH did do…

@notimagain They criticise Harry for everything he does. He’s not a perfect human. He’s made his fair share of mistakes. But the level of criticism of Harry and his wife, Meghan is unprecedented. Every day, on and on.

Unlike the way in which he is presented by tabloids he’s suing, or the newspapers these stories make money for, and people on social media who strongly dislike, even hate, him, he does not talk himself up when speaking publicly that I have seen.

See his speech when he was given an award in 2012 by former US Secretary of State, General Colonel Powell. I don’t know if he deserved that either (who knows - awards are fast losing their lustre) but he made good use of it: The level of criticism for anything and everything he does or says is astonishing. No matter what he does (or doesn’t do), they will find an angle and criticise him. Sometimes the angle is nonsensical and sometimes completely fabricated.

Harry Humanitarian Award 2012

BrittleVeneers · 15/01/2024 10:05

Can I just point out that the late Queen’s son who was at that time second in line , flew helicopters in the Falklands War ? No special treatment for him.
And NO I am not defending his personal life , I am simply stating a fact .

yes, you can point it out.

The man is gross. I’ve nothing more to say of him.

notimagain · 15/01/2024 10:07

Since Angelina Jolie got a nod up-thread this might be worth a read.

https://www.aviationfile.com/angelina-jolie-and-her-aviation-passion/

It’s true some celebs have the money to throw at the hobby, it sure helps, but if you see somebody who has taken the time and made the effort to hold multiple ratings over quite a few years you know you are looking at someone that is has a genuine interest in the subject.

Angelina Jolie and Her Aviation Passion - aviationfile

Angelina Jolie and Her Aviation Passion. . Jolie has been interested in flying since she was a child...

https://www.aviationfile.com/angelina-jolie-and-her-aviation-passion/

BrittleVeneers · 15/01/2024 10:16

Thanks for the link to Angelina Jolie @notimagain . She’s a bit of an inspiration in some ways. She sticks at things. Her humanitarian work and her flying. She’s been doing both for a long time.
She’s yet another ‘not perfect human’ whose achievements are minimised.

They build them up. Then tear them down. The tabloids have been doing it for years but now we have social media and it’s worse.

mpsw · 15/01/2024 10:20

Harry passed his Apache training fair and square.

And I doubt very much that any defence chiefs (past or present) or other quoted military talking heads are "outraged". My guess is that they are, like so many people on this thread, bemused at the idea that he is a living legend of aviation.

notimagain · 15/01/2024 11:03

CathyorClaire · 15/01/2024 09:44

ford is both fixed wing and helicopter pilot

Hasn't he been involved in a few 'incidents'?

Kind of reduces the gong to looking like a sleb back-slapping exercise. Awarding it to Harold isn't going to improve that.

Do enough flying and you are probably going to be involved in a few incidents, regardless of whether you are Harrison Ford or Jim Lovell…that doesn’t reduce the value of any award.

TBF a lot of celebs do really have a a genuine passion for aviation. Back in the days before widespread use of biz jets and when we had open flight deck doors you’d often get visits from high profile high net worth individuals who were current licence holders, working towards licenses or upgrading ratings… one visit I heard about involving one of the Legends lasted pretty much the whole 9 plus hour sector between the UK and LAX - no hints at who it was but they had a lot of questions about 4 engined Boeings.

It’s the fact that PH doesn’t seem to share the sort of enthusiasm many other celebs seem to that’s causing some of the adverse comment….

Getthethrowonthesofa · 15/01/2024 12:03

mpsw · 15/01/2024 10:20

Harry passed his Apache training fair and square.

And I doubt very much that any defence chiefs (past or present) or other quoted military talking heads are "outraged". My guess is that they are, like so many people on this thread, bemused at the idea that he is a living legend of aviation.

You sure? Because the fact remains, he failed it 3 times on the bounce and then when he got it, was never allowed to fly by the army.

Getthethrowonthesofa · 15/01/2024 12:06

They criticise Harry for everything he does. He’s not a perfect human. He’s made his fair share of mistakes. But the level of criticism of Harry and his wife, Meghan is unprecedented. Every day, on and on.

but so is harry and Megan’s criticism of the royal family. And they do it for money and fame.

Mymilkshakebringsallthepapstomycar · 15/01/2024 12:13

These awards and the org is supposed to inspire children. Sorry, but no matter what Harry did in the army, he's not someone that should be held up as an inspiration for children because of his drug use - which I am assuming is completely incompatible with having an aviation licence and/or career in the US, as it is in this country. If there was any suggestion that flying gave him a mental health boost or helped him overcome addiction, I'd understand it a bit more, but there's no suggestion of that, is there? In Spare, he talks about using his dad's car as a target when he was doing flight exercises, then deciding to "spare" him at the last minute. That's not a very sane thought process, is it?

Rockybooboo · 15/01/2024 12:19

Getthethrowonthesofa · 15/01/2024 12:06

They criticise Harry for everything he does. He’s not a perfect human. He’s made his fair share of mistakes. But the level of criticism of Harry and his wife, Meghan is unprecedented. Every day, on and on.

but so is harry and Megan’s criticism of the royal family. And they do it for money and fame.

No H&M don't criticise the Royal family relentlessly. They told their side of the story. Not all of it tells a flattering side but the main gripe was against the press. It's not relentless. Spare was a year ago.

They were famous anyway. Everyone who sells their autobiography does it for.money.

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