Harry and Meghan -- Why I dislike them BOTH

[PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog]

I keep seeing threads that say everyone who dislikes the Sussexs is based on some form of racism and I wanted to put my view across. I will set the parameters of my points:

1. Meghan absolutely did receive racist coverage from sections of the British media.

1. I believe that there were threats to their safety by far right loons.
2. I believe they were both unhappy as working members of the RF

However...

I still find them both very disingenuous. They highlight and speak up against the racism of others, whilst failing to address Harry's previous and documented racist behaviour. As a Jew I cannot understand how Meghan can just remain silent about her husbands former mistakes. This makes her seem untrustworthy to me and seems like she will put up with anything for money and cache, whilst arguing (rightly) that racism is totally unacceptable. He keeps saying others need to learn and he is right, but he should acknowledge that he too needed to learn, acknowledge the support needed to help others learn and offer that support to others (including his own family, if needed).

Their attitude towards the public also seems 'off' and ungrateful to me and they seem to collocate the press and the public as the same thing. There is a lot of footage of the public support for them before, during and after their wedding. Yet, apparently, they did not want the big public wedding and the 'UK' was racist towards them. Harry particularly understands the 'deal' between the monarchy and the public and ought to have explained this to Meghan, the comments re the wedding on Oprah came across as quite spiteful and tone deaf. Almost like, 'we suffered through the big wedding for the plebs.' Ditto all the strange behaviour around Archie's birth. They could have followed the Tindall's approach if they wanted to avoid press intrusion.

During financial pressures around the world they are still complaining and not acknowledging their wealth and privilege, whilst claiming to give voice to the needs of those living in poverty and suffering. The Africa interview was a prime example for both of them. It just all comes together to make them feel untrustworthy to me, and makes me dislike them. I do not wish them any ill, but I wish they would acknowledge their fortune and live private, useful lives.

Incidentally I reported the thread and asked for it to be deleted (along with others because of its vitriol and allegations) just before it was deleted.

It is easy to rewrite history when a thread is deleted. You and others were making fun of my job, which Mumsnet considered troll hunting, Some of your troll hunting posts were deleted before the whole thread went poof.

You are clearly keen to change reality, so I will leave you to it. Those who were on the thread know and saw what happened and have confirmed it. That's enough for me.

On those terms, we can have peace.

As you say, it's easy to rewrite history.

What thread was deleted.

A really goady thread designed to provoke a lot of responses that were construed as racist. It was vitriolic and nasty. As I said. Goady

I agree almost entirely with the anti-racist sentiment expressed in the last posts on this thread. I'm not white, not British, I live in an overwhelmingly liberal state in the US. I understand the drive and need to never, ever let it slide, and I applaud those who work tirelessly to never let it slide. As a public forum, MN shouldn't be immune form this: this isn't the dark web, this isn't a members-only QAnon-style haven, it needs to be called out every single time.

I also agree that the likes of Dan Wooton and Tom Bower are manic in their hatred of her. Personally, I think a small part of it is racism, but mostly I think they have an openly right-wing, conservative, misogynist agenda and they see Meghan Markle as fair game as the embodiment of everything that isn't. Until recently Harry was one of them, they thought. Now that he's aligned himself with her, he's also fair game (hence why I think it's only partly racism). I feel badly for her, but she 100% put herself out there. As I tell my daughter, why on earth would you put yourself out there as a model or to be in the public eye in a physical way/for your physicality, Lord only knows how many disgusting, filthy men are jerking off to your photos in their squalid bedrooms. <shudder>. Just keep yourself to yourself if you don't want to/can't take the rough with the smooth.

AND (not but, not however, AND) Meghan Markle has, to me, conducted herself in some deeply hypocritical, hubristic, sanctimonious, actually damaging ways. I remember a zoom she did at the beginning of the pandemic to a girl's empowerment forum. It was videoed and released to Middle School and High School girls. In it, she vaunted the power of girls' voices, how anything is possible, how girls need to believe in themselves, they too can have a position of power just like her if they only believe in themselves like she did etc etc. She had literally just got married to a Prince. THAT was how she got her "power". It made me so, so angry that these girls - many not white - were being told by HER that HER example is proof of (1) success (2) how to be a powerful woman. It makes me angry even now, just remembering it. What an utter abuse of position, in front of children. And with hindsight, it was all in the name of self-aggrandizement. She USED those young girl FOR HER OWN PECUNIARY BENEFIT.

There have been other such instances, this was the one that bothered me first and the most. This has nothing to do with race whatsoever.

Look, Meghan Markle herself says she never was treated "like a black woman" (can you believe it?!) until she got to the UK. Let me tell you as someone who lives in the US, that's a very bold statement for an American biracial woman to make publicly. Very. It's an own-goal, it's unintelligent, it's insulting, it's divisive, it's messed up - I could go on. Meghan Markle tried to weaponize race to her benefit. She got called out for it because while it happened, while she was a victim of racism undoubtedly, in a time of George Floyd protests going on all over her home country and around the world, she backed the wrong horse and tried to make money out of that victimhood. She's not going there any more because she can't. She has zero credibility.

For those beating the anti-racist drum, which in my book can't be beaten loud enough, there are sadly many more credible poster-girls for the points being made. Hell, there's no need for poster girls at all - it's endemic, it's everywhere, everyone knows it and if they don't fuck 'em. Meghan Markle isn't one of you. She doesn't want to be one of you. She just wants your attention and time for the money and what you can do for her. She tried it with race, it didn't work for her, she'll move along (mental health, being a daughter-in-law, being an ostracized royal - she'll find something because it's all about the hustle). That's all there is to it. Period.

Stop telling lies about @MrsMaxDeWinter she did not start it to be goady, she was making a very good point about the media and how they were now starting on Kate. If you don’t wish to engage with certain posters, don’t talk about them in disparaging terms. Just don’t engage or reference them and go on your way. This constant need to have the last word and discuss people you’ve said you don’t wish to engage with is unpleasant and unnecessary. Claiming @MrsMaxDeWinter as a woman of colour designed her posts to provoke racism is insulting and wrong. I reported posts on that thread that MNHQ emailed me about, so I have several comments in my emails that were directed at @MrsMaxDeWinter and were very unpleasant. The whole point of those comments were to bombard the thread with insults so her topic was never discussed. There were previously banned posters and name changers flinging horrible insults her way, on purpose, so all the reports got the thread deleted. The topic and point of the thread was entirely within guidelines, but it was deliberately repeatedly attacked in order to shut the conversation down.

Not sure which thread. Anyway its gone now. Not a coronation one. Or the Kate and the Queens deathbed one. But when royals are in the news and the papers people will talk about them. Probably will tail off after the coronation.

I feel badly for her, but she 100% put herself out there. As I tell my daughter, why on earth would you put yourself out there as a model or to be in the public eye in a physical way/for your physicality, Lord only knows how many disgusting, filthy men are jerking off to your photos in their squalid bedrooms. <shudder>. Just keep yourself to yourself if you don't want to/can't take the rough with the smooth.

Are you really saying that women who are models and actresses or who are attractive looking and in the public eye are at fault for men "jerking off" to them? Really? There are some thoughtful aspects to your post, even aspects I don't agree with, but I can't get past these utterly misogynistic statements. What a terrible, depressing message to give to your daughter.

Are you aware that there are women who live in countries where they have to practically drape themselves from head to toe, and still they live in misogynistic societies?

As to your statements about more "credible poster girls". I resist with my whole chest the notion that there are people more worthy of protection than others. I especially resist this when it comes to black women or women of colour, and women from marginalised groups generally because the world is divisive enough, and I am not playing that game.

Just as I spoke out against the dreadful monstering of Jade Goody when she was alive (remember her?), I will speak out against the monstering of Meghan Markle to fit a particular agenda.

There are no "worthy" or unworthy" "poster girls".

Just vile, sexist and sometimes racist behaviour and attitudes that should ALWAYS be called out, no matter how much you may dislike the targeted woman.

Thank you so much for resisting so strongly the complete fabrication you responded to.

I am so glad you have the receipts because it's stunning to me how a person who actually got the thread deleted for troll hunting and derailing can just out and out lie. It's really something,

So thank you, thank you, thank you, because honestly, this is gaslighting on steroids.

I don't have anything more to say to this poster, so I am happy to let this be the last word on the subject.

@MrsMaxDeWinter absolutely right! Women should be able to pursue any career including acting or modelling without being responsible for the disgusting attitudes of some men. All women are deserving of respect and protection. Even the ones we don’t like!

@MrsMaxDeWinter you’re welcome and yes, it would be great if the subject was left there finally.

Probably will tail off after the coronation

There will be another and another and another reason to start M&h threads. You've been on this board long enough to realise that.

Don't forget Archie hasn't had his birthday yet - one poster has already marked the calendar waiting to see if it is in the news on the same day as the coronation. I mean - like they planned his birth date knowing that Charles is going to have his big day on the same day I guess. they are irrelevant but their 4 year olds birthday is in danger of eclipsing the coronation. They shouldn't celebrate too big just in case.

Are you really saying that women who are models and actresses or who are attractive looking and in the public eye are at fault for men "jerking off" to them? Really? There are some thoughtful aspects to your post, even aspects I don't agree with, but I can't get past these utterly misogynistic statements. What a terrible, depressing message to give to your daughter.

No, my friend. They're not at fault. But, as my mom used to tell me when I was a teenager going out at late at night, it's not about fault. When the worst has happened, fault and blame isn't what matters to the victim who's left picking up the pieces of her life. The terrible, depressing message I'm giving my daughter is that there are terrible, depressing things going on out there in the world and you can dodge them or court them or do whatever you want. But this shit is real, it happens. We can't pretend it doesn't. There will ALWAYS be shit stuff going on. Because that's human life.

Are you aware that there are women who live in countries where they have to practically drape themselves from head to toe, and still they live in misogynistic societies?

I am. I hail from just one such. Hence my beliefs above. AND (not but and not however!) not all such draped women are suppressed or oppressed, are the victims of misogyny and not all men in such societies are sexist. You know as well as I, it's complicated.

Anyway, derailing.

@Partyandbullshit what would you say though if your daughters passion was acting? One of my daughters absolutely lives for it! That and writing. Why would I tell her not to pursue something that makes her so happy, more happy than anything else. She cannot imagine not pursuing it. Do you think I should tell her not to pursue it because of men? It’s easy enough to avoid walking alone at night. But if all women stopped acting because of the way some men behave, that means the industry would be solely taken up by men. It does seem like you’re saying women should or could limit this predatory behaviour of men by covering themselves and staying away from certain occupations.

Totally and utterly agree. The thread was a very interesting one. It just didn't get the responses some posters wanted. Hence the deletions and then pulling. Very unfair.

@MrsMaxDeWinter has always always been a measured, fair and interesting poster. I have learnt from her. She never ever attacks but she will, like me, respond. Why shouldn't she?

Not at all, @Whaeanui ! I would tell your daughter that she must follow her heart and her head, make good decisions, and push herself beyond her limits. But, to do it with her head screwed on and look for good role models. I can think of a number of reputed female actresses who are all about the acting (including my absolute favorite, totally underrated, Amy Adams). Rachel Weiss, Kerry Washington, Viola Davis, Cate Blanchett, Olivia Coleman etc, not to mention the older generation like Meryl Streep, Judi Dench etc.

Acting does NOT = putting yourself out there to be used. It means, acting. Your daughter must do what impassions her, ACT. Not seek fame and fortune. Act.

Sorry, you are correct, I won't mention again. I'm selling something on FB and I am inundated with messages (I think I priced it too cheaply!) so every post I write is taking aaaaages!

.

@Partyandbullshit would you agree though, that for actresses fame and fortune can be something you don’t seek and an often unwanted part of the job? Some of the actresses you name have discussed the unwanted unpleasant parts of their profession, they’re not of their choosing. Sienna Miller also sued The Sun for hacking ( Harry has a case against them soon ), she didn’t seek out to have her phones hacked did she? She was an actress who had a particular boyfriend and that was it. I think we need to be mindful of blaming women for ‘attention’ and harassment as if that is somehow our fault. Women should be free to live the life of their choosing without harassment or any blame for that harassment. Advising them to limit their choices or adapt their behaviour to counter mens predatory actions, in my view at least, is misogynistic.

Superb post at 15.10, Partyandbullshit; I've rarely seen such a thoughtful recognition both of the horrors of racism and that individuals at fault don't get to weaponise the claim unchallenged, no matter who they happen to be

@Partyandbullshit

I found your post very thoughtful

The problem I have with the logic of the post from @Partyandbullshit is that first it’s acknowledged both racism and right wing misogyny are at play and it’s bad:

Personally, I think a small part of it is racism, but mostly I think they have an openly right-wing, conservative, misogynist agenda and they see Meghan Markle as fair game as the embodiment of everything that isn't. Until recently Harry was one of them, they thought. Now that he's aligned himself with her, he's also fair game (hence why I think it's only partly racism). I feel badly for her, but she 100% put herself out there.

The last sentence suggests she is at fault for ‘putting herself out there’ for what is already acknowledged as racist and misogynist behaviour.

Then later:

Just keep yourself to yourself if you don't want to/can't take the rough with the smooth.

‘Rough with the smooth’ in reference to racism and misogyny?

So it does suggest that to avoid the racism and misogyny, she should not have pursued a public career or married her husband.

I have no idea what 'keeping yourself to yourself' actually means. It sounds like something that my mother who would be a hundred and something old now, would say. And that's not a good thing.

I have adult DDs. They don't keep themselves to themselves. They stand up to be counted in very many ways.

Let me tell you as someone who lives in the US, that's a very bold statement for an American biracial woman to make publicly. Very. It's an own-goal, it's unintelligent, it's insulting, it's divisive, it's messed up - I could go on.

Well, it’s the experience of biracial people like Meghan who are often treated ‘better’ than darker women of colour. In NZ we call it white-passing. One of my sisters is quite light so she is white-passing and treated better than I am, often not initially being identified as Maori. I believe in America you’d refer to this as colorism. So Meghan may never have experienced some of the racist things that her mother would have, for example.