Harry and Meghan -- Why I dislike them BOTH

[PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog]

I keep seeing threads that say everyone who dislikes the Sussexs is based on some form of racism and I wanted to put my view across. I will set the parameters of my points:

1. Meghan absolutely did receive racist coverage from sections of the British media.

1. I believe that there were threats to their safety by far right loons.
2. I believe they were both unhappy as working members of the RF

However...

I still find them both very disingenuous. They highlight and speak up against the racism of others, whilst failing to address Harry's previous and documented racist behaviour. As a Jew I cannot understand how Meghan can just remain silent about her husbands former mistakes. This makes her seem untrustworthy to me and seems like she will put up with anything for money and cache, whilst arguing (rightly) that racism is totally unacceptable. He keeps saying others need to learn and he is right, but he should acknowledge that he too needed to learn, acknowledge the support needed to help others learn and offer that support to others (including his own family, if needed).

Their attitude towards the public also seems 'off' and ungrateful to me and they seem to collocate the press and the public as the same thing. There is a lot of footage of the public support for them before, during and after their wedding. Yet, apparently, they did not want the big public wedding and the 'UK' was racist towards them. Harry particularly understands the 'deal' between the monarchy and the public and ought to have explained this to Meghan, the comments re the wedding on Oprah came across as quite spiteful and tone deaf. Almost like, 'we suffered through the big wedding for the plebs.' Ditto all the strange behaviour around Archie's birth. They could have followed the Tindall's approach if they wanted to avoid press intrusion.

During financial pressures around the world they are still complaining and not acknowledging their wealth and privilege, whilst claiming to give voice to the needs of those living in poverty and suffering. The Africa interview was a prime example for both of them. It just all comes together to make them feel untrustworthy to me, and makes me dislike them. I do not wish them any ill, but I wish they would acknowledge their fortune and live private, useful lives.

I wasn’t even aware there’d been a Celebitchy link posted yesterday! I was referring to the many previous posts which parrot takes, nicknames and stories posted on there. There are a lot.

I've only seen one direct C&P job from that bottom feeding site. It was 2 or 3 days ago.

That’s ….nice for you, I guess? I’ve seen many.

Nice? Why would it be. Not at all. Which is why I called it a bottom feeding site.

Lots of copy and paste stuff from Celebitchy? Honestly? That was the very first one I have seen and the poster concerned was called out very quickly.

There was a very prolific poster who started numerous threads, who admitted to using celebitchy as a source

I think one particular day she started 6 threads attacking the royal family using faux concern or ignorance. It became rather funny in the end though. I’ve no idea if she is still posting as I don’t spend much time here anymore

Gosh, yes I remember that poster and yes it did end up very amusing. That poster and the Spanish translation of 'Spare' got me all the way through a bout of covid so I'm grateful to them both😁.

The Spanish badly translated 'Spare' was hilarious!

I’ve just found series 3 of the Windsors.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

The magazine for printing it and M&H if they seriously think this (which I don't believe... its just media spin).
Oh ok your previous post ended with "speechless" so I thought you were blaming M&H for the article ..... which judging. By this maybe you are.

However, I'll put money on birthday pictures of the oh so private archie, at his party a few days after the coronation. They have form
So you are hedging your bets then.

What does oh so private Archie mean?

But they can put pictures of their children wherever they please when they please?
Why should the media have that right. They are their pictures. The point is I'm sure you will agree they want to make that choice of what pictures and when to share of their children, I think they were more concerned about being referenced to monkeys - maybe you don't remember that one

It’s weird, up until spare the pair of them were surgically attached to each other. They literally did everything together, from charitable work on.

since spare they’ve done nothing together, even the couple of charitable things Meghan did she did alone, and now she’s not even coming to the coronation to support him. She doesn’t even come and sit in the audience at interviews or events, like she used to.

which makes me wonder if the delay in responding wasn’t about negotiations with thr palace, but negotiations between the pair of them. As in he wanted her there and she was refusing. That’s why the palace source said he’d focused on something so minor as seating when asked, as it was never about the palace and them, but more about harry and Meghan.

there has definitely been a paradigm shift in their behaviour. It’s become hugely noticeable that they don’t behave like they used to.

He said Camilla was leaking untrue, not nice stories to the press about him in a deal whereby the press would then agree not to publish stories about Tom PB who they had dirt on. Harry does not specify the nature of the dirt on Tom PB. I thought that was a horrid and needless thing to put in the book. Because even if it’s true it’s not Toms fault and now he will have people speculating about what he did!

This is simply not true.

What you said was that Meghan had never mentioned or talked about her mother before she met Harry. You also implied that Doria had disappeared from Meghan's life because she was in prison.

When challenged, with evidence that in fact, Doria had always been present in her daughter's life, and that Meghan had been profusely warm about her mother in writing, long before she met Harry, you refused to acknowledge that you had made a mistake. I also pointed out that it was racist to imply or suggest that Doria was ever in prison, without evidence, and simply because she was a black woman, while giving Thomas Markle, Meghan's white parent a pass for his appalling conduct which has included blackmailing his daughter, making common cause with people like Piers Morgan and Dan Wootton, and giving interviews on YouTube channels that spread conspiracy theories about Meghan's pregnancies.

I also pointed out the hypocrisy of slamming Doria for being a poor mother while giving Samantha Markle (whom you support) a pass when she did not raise her children.

I also pointed out it is racist and discriminatory to apply a higher standard to black people than you do to white people.

Instead of responding, or acknowledging graciously that you had made a mistake about Meghan no mentioning her mother, you tagged me and said you did not want to engage me.

You then came on to a thread I started, with the same message. You and others then started troll hunting me, sneering at what I have said is my job, and the thread got deleted.

I accept that we disagree on these threads, but it is never necessary to lie.

Thank you.

glad someone else has noticed it.

I also pointed out it is racist and discriminatory to apply a higher standard to black people than you do to white people.

An important message that doesn’t seem to be sinking in for some members of the press and public.

Thank you!!

I remember ages ago (not on recent threads I think) some people were posting racist and other unpleasant things about Meghan and they turned out to be Fans (MN found this out) just trying to get the threads deleted. Lunacy!

It’s all good sport the M&H stuff and it’s interesting to read their defenders’ posts. There are a few rabid fans and when I see their names/new names, especially starting disingenuous Kate threads I groan and idly wonder what sort of people they are.

Also calling people racist/haterz and wot not is very pile-on social media gang sounding and not very MN-y. If someone has been really offensive, report it, but otherwise argue sensibly (and robustly!).

There’s a difference between

1. YOU’RE RACIST!

and

2. I think you’re holding the black people in this situation to a higher standard than the white. Explain to me why?

Option 2 is much more likely to result in constructive discussion and useful consensus

I do appreciate however that MN is for fun and what some people really want is a ruck . That’s fine, everyone can behave as they wish

yet you spent half you post slagging off anyone who defends them. rabid fans?
so calling people haters must be ok too

Thank you for this post, that shows the nuanced nature of what many of us have tried to do.

Just some examples of the issues that I have raised.

I have asked why Doria, a black woman, is held to a higher parenting standard than Thomas and Samantha, a white father and mother. Why is Thomas given a pass for all his ghastly behaviour, but Doria is attacked on the basis of untrue rumours about being a convict? Why is Doria slammed because at one time, Thomas provided the primary residence for Meghan, while Samantha has no relationship with any of her three children, two of whom were raised by others?

Basically, why is it Doria who is the bad parent, and not the other two?

I have discussed the famous Buzzfeed side by side comparison of headlines and stories about Meghan doing exactly the same things as other royals, especially Kate, to understand why posters think it's okay for Meghan to be slammed for doing the same things others do. Kate eats avocados, oh William is so thoughtful to give them to her. Meghan eats avocados, she's accused of fuelling murder in the third world. Kate's lilies of the valleys are a "thoughtful nod to tradition", Meghan's lilies of the valley an attempt on the life of Charlotte. Camilla, Charles, Kate edit magazines and newspapers, all good, Meghan does the same and she is called vulgar. I could go on.

I have pushed back against the atrocious, and dismissive stock response when issues of race are raised ("I don't see colour") to explain that it is a form of gaslighting to dismiss the experience of others just because you may not have had those experiences.

I have pushed back against the "I don't care if you are black, white, purple, or polka-dotted" trope to spell out that that it is offensive to dismiss racism using colours that no human has, effectively othering and gaslighting at the same time.

And when @purpledalmation claimed on a recently deleted thread that no one had said anything racist on it, I (and others) pointed out that it is a racist to call Asian people "yellow" as someone had done on that thread.

@Whaeanui @Roussette @Samcro @PreparationPreparationPrep and many others, women of colour and white allies, women of all races and backgrounds, have tried to have reasoned and nuanced discussions about race on these boards. All to be shouted down. The apotheosis came with the Ngozi Fulani and Susan Hussey debacle when we had to plead with @MNHQ not to delete the threads containing many racist posts, because it was important that people understood just how far Mumsnet posters on the whole are in understanding issues of racism and unconscious bias.

I was also one of the posters, under a different name, that lobbied for the BlackMumsnetters board after a poster was hounded and hounded for raising concerns about racism on Mumsnet.

No one has ever just shouted RACIST. We have been trying to engage in thoughtful discussion about race and unconscious bias to show that it is not as simple as saying, "No one called Meghan the N word so she has never experienced racism" or "I didn't even know she was mixed race so therefore there has been no racism".

What is really telling is that, just as when there is a really good discussion going, for instance on the recent deleted thread, the Antis flood the thread with trolling, troll hunting and name changing, and Mumsnet ends up shutting down the thread.

Every. Single. Time.

I am of non-British origin and I'll never want anybody to positively discriminate in my favour (or in favour of my children) on ethnicity grounds. If you are a bloody brilliant student, athlete or whatever else, nothing in the world will hold you back. We have never been a racist enough country to hold back those with talents that stand them head and shoulders above the others. Anybody who claims otherwise was possibly not as gifted or talented as they imagine.

Perhaps it is different for the hardworking though mediocre majority where there is a greater battle going on for recognition.

Thanks for the reply, really interesting and informative. I drop in and out of this, so not fully up to speed

I would say that I don’t think much of Meghan (although I probably have more time for her than for Harry), and I’m certain it’s because of her inconsistent behaviour and ridiculous hyperbole, not because I’m racist (but then I would think that wouldn’t I?)

do I think she’s pretty awful? Yes

do I think she’s had a hard time because of her race? Yes

both things can be true. But it’s good to be held to account and made to think about WHY I think she’s awful to make sure I’m being fair

I'm going to say it, for me with the pair of them it's just the lecturing we get about the environment etc when they don't stick to the rules that they want the rest of us to keep. I know it's been said before but at least don't make excuses or make things up to justify yourselves. And don't whinge about how awful life is when most people have pretty rubbish lives and also no money to resolve any issues. I know money doesn't buy happiness but it does prevent added misery. And means you can buy in help.

I don't recall anyone on these threads ever asking for affirmative action?

At the same time, this simply not true:

We have never been a racist enough country to hold back those with talents that stand them head and shoulders above the others. Anybody who claims otherwise was possibly not as gifted or talented as they imagine.

It is not true that if you are brilliant etc, nothing in the world will hold you back.

Just a few examples.

For many decades, black people in the Royal household were confined to the kitchens. Even now, the households are not subject to racial and sex discrimination laws. Of course, it may be that only white people are qualified to work for the royal households, but I somehow doubt that.

Second example: after the murder of Stephen Lawerence, the UK had a report into the police and found a culture of what they called institutional racism. You may want to read about how many senior police officers were of colour before that report, compared to now, after some reforms were made.

Third example: there have also been studies done that show that students with the same grades, results, etc, are at a disadvantage over their white peers, particularly in the city, law firms etc, because some of their names are considered "too ethnic".

And most recently, there was a case where the Ritz Hotel had to issue an apology after a black interviewee received an email that said "no Afro hair.".

I am sure people of colour in these examples would have wanted to go as far as their talents could take them, certainly, as far as their white counterparts went. In fact, my own experience is that to succeed as a black person in a predominantly white society, you really have to stand out, as you say head and shoulders above the others.

See, you and I could have a good discussion about this. Because there are things that I roll my eyes at, that both Meghan and Harry do. And I can accept that she can come across as cloying, in a very exaggerated way that puts people's backs up, especially people in the UK.

I get that.

But it does not explain the acres and acres of space devoted to her every word, even when she is silent, to her every move, even when she has made no move. That she can be annoying and perhaps even unlikeable does not explain the million dollar industry that exists to tear her down. It does not explain the conspiracy theories about her and her mother, and it is always her and her mother.

A journalist on Twitter just posted that one tabloid has published 44 separate articles about her in the last 24 hours. That's 44 in a day, over a woman who is not going to be anywhere near the UK any time soon, and who has barely been seen this year.

This is harassment, there is no other way of saying it.

Meghan is being harassed by the media, and race feeds into why she is being harassed. And the harassment has an effect on places like this, where we are told there are so many threads about her because she is an attention whore who just loves the attention, when all it is is that she is being stalked and harassed by the media, and then she is blamed for it.

I think the root cause of the issues is harry is overwhelmingly jealous of William., from the way he resembled his mother, to being the future king, to getting the better bedroom, to marrying, settling down, having kids first, Harry’s jealousy over his brother is at the base of this whole thing, the resentment has been growing for decades.

it’s clear when he got with Meghan he thought they would become the stars, he would be first for a change,all the attention on him, even his words, he said she was coming in to get rid of the stuffy ways and put in place new ways of working. Or how rhey would collaborate with the queen, Meghan markle was in no way qualified to change the monarchy, nor was the queen about to permit it. What is she supposedly said, she wondered if harry wasn’t a bit over in love? Very astute if so.

when that didn’t happen the way he wanted and he had sold Meghan, it started to fall to shit. For both of them.

my take is that was the root cause, Harry’s overwhelming jealousy and then both thinking the other was going to help them leap frog to shining star much loved a list celeb status, jet setting round the world, hanging with the likes of the clooneys, believing that was their due. Then realising they were held accountable, that they still had to do rainy days in Clacton, and that William and Kate were still going to be first, still with the better accommodation, still number 1, it went horribly wrong, the behaviour on the Africa tour was the real first public sign of how bad it was going to be.