Why are H&M "less important" now?

[thefoggiest]

Let's not make this a bashing thread!
But in another thread yesterday it occured to me that the way I see it, I just get the sense that with the queens death they almost drop a rank. But that doesnt make sense? If anything shouldn't they now feel more important? Now that her majesty has gone it just feels like they become more distant somehow. Could it be to do with the passing of a generation, so they are no longer "the youth"?

By the way this isnt based on any facts or anything I've read, just a feeling on it. Can anyone explain? Am I right or wrong?

I was waiting for that comment 😆

I don't, obviously. I still stand by my initial remark.

I hear her being called intelligent or brainy all the time but am I the only one who thinks she isn't? If she was she wouldn't keep saying things that can be easily proved to be not the case.

I think it's the additional scrutiny that's tripped her up - similar to Trump and presidency - previous behaviors that mostly worked or went mostly under the carpet - inconsistences that were missed, ignored, put down to mis reporting or misunderstanding now are there for everyone to see and media churns over and over because it sells their product.

It's lack of preparation again - plus it's very hard to walk away from strategies that have previous worked the further along in life you are.

I fell down a bit of rabbit hole last night on the tinterweb about the monarchy, and I notice many current Dukes or their father's were like 5th in line to the throne when born (queen's cousins, so not that far back) but are now 30+ in line.

It's just the way it goes. You might be born 4th 5th in line but after 2 or more generations you are then very far away.

Queen had 4 children which pushed many of these out, and William has now had 3 so by the time George, Charlotte and Louis all have children in two decades or so Harry and Meghan will be really out of the line and their children even more so.

I think it's just the natural decline in status in The Firm.

I honestly believe had the drama of his parents not happened, putting the two young boys in intensive spotlight and discussed for years in the media to the level they are, he would already be slipping out of headlines and who he married wouldn't have really mattered. I think both William's and Harry's mother and father caused the abnormally high interest in them.

Also I think because there were only 2 of them.
By the time Prince Edward was getting married and having children there wasn't a fraction of the interest there had been for his siblings weddings and new babies.

Indeed! But as we all know more than 2 was never going to happen, The Firm just needed a heir and a spare and then seperate Charles and Diana best they could to try and avoid drama, but that didn't work did it 😂

I also think part of it is also driven by the still standing bizzare borderline sycophantic interest in Diana who's been dead 25 years.

Oh Diana's boys, Diana wouldn't like this, Diana wouldn't have let X Y and Z happen. Diana wouldn't approve, Diana would be so upset about what's happened.

Jesus the woman's been dead a long time let it go. She's literally modern history now. William and Harry and their wives seem to be always played against their dead mother! It's odd.

@CaptainBarbosa exactly, there only was HMQ and Margaret.
At birth Margaret's children would have been after the Queens 4, and Margaret so 6&7th, they are miles down the list now as all the Queens grandchildren and Great grandchildren slot in.

So while Margaret's children are verging on irrelevant to the thrown, Margaret herself was a very important support to HMQ at the time.

Exactly the same as Harry could be and Ann and Edward are. The Monarch can't do everything they do need some support, from the family.

Family and lines of succession are two different things, aren’t they? The Duke of Kent must be well into the 40s in line,
despite being a firm top ten at birth, but is still the Queen’s cousin who she knew all her life, regardless of his proximity to the throne. Harry remains a son/brother/cousin uncle within his own family.

I agree it's odd that people hold Diana’s perceived thoughts in such high regard. How does anyone know what she'd think?

The teenager more or less had an arranged marriage to a man shes reported to only have met 6 or 7 times before the wedding, encouraged by both families.

Would she really influence who her children could, should, would marry?

I don't doubt Harry and William might have turned out differently if she hadn't passed away when they were so young. But I think that's the same for many young people who loose parents as children.

True but The Firm and The Family are two separate things also.

So maybe H and M have fallen out with both The Firm and The family, who knows I'm not a fly on the wall.

Families have their issues, and if H and M weren't happy, and they made the decision to leave so be it. It's their lives.

But I think in terms of becoming less important, I think that's The Firm driving it as they know where Harry will end up in the next 30years so he's not constitutionally important anymore. Maybe that's part of Harry's issue, the realisation that The Firm are saying "yes but in so many years you'll be on the fringe" and that must be a hard pill to swallow when where your are standing, your The Kings son and then The Kings brother and they are your family.

I'm just musing though I know nothing 😂

I honestly believe had the drama of his parents not happened, putting the two young boys in intensive spotlight and discussed for years in the media to the level they are, he would already be slipping out of headlines and who he married wouldn't have really mattered. I think both William's and Harry's mother and father caused the abnormally high interest in them.

I think it's been a constant struggle for them to know where to put the boundaries with the media - even Queen and Prince Philip miss stepped at times.

The monarchy needs to be seen - so needs the press - I think they've step back in recent years been firmer but also tabloids have also stepped back partly due to their behavior around Diana but also the phone scandals - and a lot of public figures pushing back.

Though I do agree the pre/post divorce media courting point scoring from parents probably did add to hype around the two princes.

@Doubleraspberry lines of succession are like a ruler, one child is more important than another.
But normal family links are more like a Spiders Web.

I do laugh when people say x child or y grandchild was the Queens favourite. Do we really believe someone as dignified as HMQ would let her favourites be known? Do they also think she had a favourite corgi, or love them equally?

So maybe H and M have fallen out with both The Firm and The family, who knows I'm not a fly on the wall

I'd agree I think the trust has gone between them. If they'd walked away from the Firm they could have remained close to the Family.
But the Ophra interview did so much damage to the relationships that the Family has shut them out too.

What's the relevance of having a favourite corgi? I'm sure she did have a favourite and probably everyone knew it!
I have two cats, one is my favourite, I think that's pretty normal tbh.

I look at my generation, so many of us have no living memory of Diana we were small children when she died. And many of us just think "let the man (Harry) be"

Perhaps as those with more living memories and staunch views on Diana leave the echo chamber, William and Harry might finally get relief from it all.

If Charles plays scaling the monarchy down, becoming modern royals and a modern vision, he might achieve this during his reign. One can only hope for William, Catherine, Harry and Meghan's sake I suppose.

And it is culturally ignorant to claim that he did.

Yes, but I say "modelled behaviour" is important for how we grow and deal with situations.

When things went wrong for Harry's parents he's simply modelled what they did. High profile interviews and a "tell all"

He may well think, that's how it's dealt with, that's what mum and dad did and he followed suit.

I honestly don't think they said much of anything, it was just a moan and a "this is my side of the story" sort of thing.

Harry and Meghan just had access to a bigger soap box rather than a slanging match on Facebook 😂

H&M may have a bigger soap box but there story had many holes which were picked over. That's what cost them trust.

I remember the Diana interview crowded marriage and people did take her side. Charles had a lot of work to come back from that. There are still people who are anti Charles because of that interview.

Never though about it as modelled behaviour but your right. But that interview Ophra interview backfired on them something awful. Times have changed it was easy to pick holes in what they said.

I am well old enough to remember Diana. She was sanctified when she died by the same papers who’d been printing nasty articles about her a few days earlier (and the press threw everything at it to try to distract from the paparazzi involvement in her death). Neither she nor Charles behaved with dignity when their marriage broke down and she was clearly hard work, as was he.

She was the boys’ mother and they have every right to mourn her, and feel traumatised by her death and all the events around it and after it. But has she lived, the press would have continued ripping her to shreds, and wouldn’t have given a toss what she thought about anything other than stoking up rumours of her being a difficult mother in law.

I believe it backfired because they didn't have strong PR people in place, who were able to control the narrative. Coach them and prepare them correctly or who had their best interest at hearts. Everyone around them what's whipping them up, say this say that, doesn't matter if it's a half truth. People wanted to be Team Sussex and get the cash.

I also blame Operah she guided them down many a path and opened them up to this, I wouldn't be calling her a "friend"...Operah was after the big money and the shock interview and she got it, she was monetarily invested in this interview, and it's still going down in history as one of the bombshell interviews of all time. Well done Operah she got what she wanted.

Harry was clearly still hurt by whatever had transpired, Meghan was hurt, but I feel Operah exploited and controlled that interview. I know many will disagree with me.

I feel Operah exploited and controlled that interview.

I don't think so. Oprah is a big enough star not to need to exploit anyone. I don't know who first suggested the interview, but this was Prince Harry and Meghan Markle at the height of the Megxit story; they had the pick of who they wanted to talk to and nobody would have refused them.

I agree it's odd that people hold Diana’s perceived thoughts in such high regard. How does anyone know what she'd think?

This is partly why I was interested to see Ben Goldsmith's critical tweets about Meghan yesterday. After all, his sister Jemima was one of Diana's best friends.

I completely agree. What this whole episode has demonstrated is that, once out of the fold, you are swimming with sharks. The RF protect themselves well and have had centuries to develop ways of doing so, presumably surrounding themselves with people who want to protect not only the individual but the system itself. Ox2, GK, SS, even SW are all in it for themselves. As that Spectator article states, you can't buy that kind of loyalty.

Indeed The firm contrary to popular belief are not "yes men" The Firm protect the institution and the crown and the PR that's involved with that.

The Firm treat the family high ranking or low as employees, and they dictate what will be said, when it will be said, and how it will be said.

There's a reason there's so many courtiers and PR staff. I firmly believe even if someone wanted to release a Press Release even if that was The King and the firm said "no, not advisable" that would be then end of it.

Commercial PR teams are "yes men" "money making men" they aren't there to protect an institution with decades of loyality, it's a pay check and once that celeb is on their CV they just move on to the next for the better pay cheque.

There's a reason there's so many courtiers and PR staff. I firmly believe even if someone wanted to release a Press Release even if that was The King and the firm said "no, not advisable" that would be then end of it.

Couldn't agree more the King is top. If a palace couturier released something he'd said no to then they'd be out on their bum. They might try and talk him round but ultimately it's his decision.

If you think of it as a normal family business, the working Royals are directors of various status, King is MD.
The staff, include everyone else from Couturiers to cleaners.

The RF protect themselves well and have had centuries to develop ways of doing so, presumably surrounding themselves with people who want to protect not only the individual but the system itself.

The other thing to consider is how important loyalty is to these people. It is to most people, to be fair - but when you live in a goldfish bowl, with your every move scrutinised and gossip all over the papers every time you step outside the door, it must matter more than anything to them. And that’s why they’ll have taken Harry’s antics on Oprah so very, very personally. I don’t see how there’s a way back for him from that.