The "Royal Racist"

[GrimDamnFanjo]

The discussion is still rumbling on...
Over on the Daily Mail site there's yet another article about whether H&M will name names.
This I found was interestingly written as it only seems to mention one other family member...

@PearlyRising

Yes, I'd say he'll be back in the UK he hated so much by about 2023-4 He's raised amongst all those Etonians, polo players and aristos. There his people.

And his children are not?

@upinaballoon

Why2why, you say that "the history of their institution is founded on a racist concept", referring to the current British Royal Family. How far back in history are you going? When William of Normandy came over here in 1066 and became king of quite a bit of territory, I suppose he and other people saw him as being above everyone else in society's measuring, certainly following a concept of division and elitism, but I don't see how that was a racist concept. Why do you say that the institution of monarchy is racist?

It’s not my job to educate you on your history. As for the modern RF, some of their antics are well documented including those by Prince Phillip, Harry, William, The Queen Mother and the Queen, etc. Not to mention the Queen has done her best to be exempted from equality laws and the palace staff are less than diverse (unless working in menial roles). Not forgetting that she is the head of state if Commonwealth countries whose citizens are considered not to have the right skin colour to work in certain jobs at the palaces.

@Why2why

Whether an individual's actions are racist has nothing to do with anything that person's relatives did, or anything anyone else did. The concept of inherited guilt you're espousing here is actually very, very close to racism.

And yes, if someone publicly claims you said something you didn't say, and that something that you didn't say makes you appear to be a racist, then you can usually sue them. It doesn't matter whether you're a racist or not - it only matters whether you said the thing or not. That's why they were so vague about both what was said and who said.

[quote PurpleOkapi]@Why2why

Whether an individual's actions are racist has nothing to do with anything that person's relatives did, or anything anyone else did. The concept of inherited guilt you're espousing here is actually very, very close to racism.

And yes, if someone publicly claims you said something you didn't say, and that something that you didn't say makes you appear to be a racist, then you can usually sue them. It doesn't matter whether you're a racist or not - it only matters whether you said the thing or not. That's why they were so vague about both what was said and who said.[/quote]
I have made no such claim of inherited guilt. The institution is founded on racism, no member I know of has ever spoken up against the practices that still continue. It’s not about inherited guilt; it is about a family culture, a way of operating that all of them continue to participate in.

So it is absolutely no surprise that this way of operating and thinking spilled out into questions about Archie’s skin colour.

I’d therefore like to see anyone of them claim slander when the circumstances surrounding claims of the question about Archie’s skin provides credible grounds that such a question could very well be asked.

In any case if Harry says the question was asked, it would be interesting if anyone from the RF claims it is slander. It would reveal that they do think it was steeped in racist thinking. Otherwise, it’s just a question.

But what question was asked ??
We don’t know
It’s all so vague
Just say it
At the moment
We don’t know what was asked or who said it
Surely that is ridiculous !!!

@PearlyRising

Yes, I'd say he'll be back in the UK he hated so much by about 2023-4 He's raised amongst all those Etonians, polo players and aristos. There his people.

He didn't say he hated the UK, friends or family. Things weren't working out for him and Meghan from their perspective.

I hope he comes back. I don't care about his Etonian, etc, friends, he was an unassuming chap, had plenty of other friends and was very active on many social issues.

@Lockupyourbiscuits

But what question was asked ?? We don’t know It’s all so vague Just say it At the moment We don’t know what was asked or who said it Surely that is ridiculous !!!

100% this.

In the OW so called interview H&M constantly said “they” said this, “they” said that. Who are “they”? “They” could be the Queen & Duke of Edinburgh, the “men in grey suits” that Princess Diana referred to, or even the press office.

As a PP said, H&M played the whole situation well. If you don’t specifically name who said/did what, and it’s very difficult for the royal family to disprove.

It does however show OW in a very poor light as any other interviewer would have questioned who “they” were. Also the apparently English press clippings which were mostly either foreign or doctored were a whole new low too.

If you are of the belief that making a racist comment is both a serious matter and utterly unacceptable (which I hope most people do) then you logically have to agree that actions that leave people under a cloud of suspicion of such an allegation is also both serious and unacceptable.

Fundamentally, you can't have it both ways.

The narrative from H&M is disconnected in both timelines, context and specifics.

I'm not suggesting they are lying that something was said that they believed was racist and may well have been so.

But I do think they've been deliberately vague in detail and are spinning that as being virtuous wrt to "protecting" this person because of the consequences of naming them - whilst simultaneously as a result throwing multiple family members under the bus by leaving them in the shadow of their accusation.

I don't believe that's behaviour to be applauded.

Either name names and be done with it or deal with the matter in private.

@PearlyRising

Yes, I'd say he'll be back in the UK he hated so much by about 2023-4 He's raised amongst all those Etonians, polo players and aristos. There his people.

Nope I don’t believe Harry would divorce his wife & leave his children just because he misses polo & aristos. He ain’t coming back , I know the tabloids & some people really miss him and wishes he will divorce Meghan but nah .. he is happy with his wife & children.

Maybe he’ll come back maybe he won’t.

If he does return, I think it’ll be because of cultural differences between US & U.K. It’s ever thus when you marry someone from a different culture/country.

One of you has to compromise & live away from where you were raised. My dad did the same when he married my mum. They decided to make the U.K. their home. He’s spent the last 50+ years returning ‘home’ at every opportunity. Sometimes with my mum but not always. Even after covid he flew on the first day he could.

People underestimate the difficulties when marrying from another country. It’s not easy & one person has to make more compromises than the other. Sometimes that alone makes the marriage fail. Nothing more nothing less.

He won't be back ! Why would he? He's happy over there with his wife and little children and doing what he wants to do, with added freedom.
Well done them.

He may well be happy Rousette but as I’ve explained above it’s very difficult when you are from different countries & cultures.

My dad is happy with my mum but it hasn’t stopped him missing ‘home’. The only thing that keeps him in the U.K. are my mum, & us. If it wasn’t for that he’d go back in a heartbeat. And that’s with having lived here for 50+ years. And he wants to be buried over there.

I don't think he will come back either.

However, I think when it comes to the kids education it will be a tough one for him, most British people I know, from all walks of life, want their kids educated in the British system. It is always a huge dilemma for expat Brits. I can't see Meghan sending their kids to boarding school.

I don’t think he will come either, he burned his bridges. as in doing what he wants to do in the US? Doubt he is capable of doing anything without blaming Media /playing victim .

Different people handle living in another country differently, not everyone is the same.

In any case if Harry says the question was asked, it would be interesting if anyone from the RF claims it is slander. It would reveal that they do think it was steeped in racist thinking. Otherwise, it’s just a question

It’s a bit more complicated than that actually. There are two issues here to would need to be looked at.

Firstly, what was actually said? There will be Harry’s own account of a conversation that took place presumably some 4 years ago now, and which he has obviously gone over several times in his mind since, recounted to Meghan, and formed the view that the words used were racist. The other party to the conversation will doubtless have their own recollection of what was said, and the context. Recollections generally really do vary on this kind of thing. So the first job would be to establish what was actually said.

The next step, once you’ve established what was actually said, is to determine if its imputation would tend to lower the speaker in the estimation of right-thinking members of society generally. That will depend on context as well as the tone and import of the words.

So, if Harry and Meghan do publish what was said, and are sued for defamation, it may just be because the named party has a different recollection of the conversation.

@Roussette

He won't be back ! Why would he? He's happy over there with his wife and little children and doing what he wants to do, with added freedom. Well done them.

I agree that he has no reason to come back now and neither of them are concerned with what the citizens of the UK think about them, they are solely focused on the USA. And that's absolutely fine as long as their relationship stays strong.

Speaking as someone who left their home country for love, it isn't always easy, and it will be particularly difficult for Harry for whom a traditional royal lifestyle (eg the season, Balmoral in the summer, Sandringham at Christmas, the year's calendar punctuated by particular very British traditions such as Trooping the Colour, Remembrance Sunday ... . etc. ) has been the norm for over thirty odd years.

He may be loving life in the US ATM which may afford him much more freedom than he has had previously, but there comes a time when you move abroad that you switch from "holiday mode" to "RL mode" and you encounter all sorts of minor irritations challenges ranging from a strange brand of tea bags, different weather, to major administrative and communication difficulties. And despite our common language, the USA is a very different place to the UK, he will find certain aspects of it very alien to him, despite his wealth and privilege.

Being alone out there, without the support of family and friends will be a challenge and will place huge pressure on his marriage. Add the pressure of the ongoing acrimony that accompanied his departure from the UK ...their very different socio-economic backgrounds and upbringing ...both of them coming from somewhat dysfunctional families ... I hope I am wrong but given that the marriage has been under extreme pressure from day one , I think it will be very hard for them both to make it work.

Isn't it strange, I don't feel that at all. But I appreciate your post @Anothermountain. It was interesting.

I think the leaving was the moment he was waiting for most of his life, he's always been a square peg in a round hole within the RF and it took Meghan and him together to realise there was another way to live your life.

Personally I think there'll be huge relief and a sense of looking forward and not back to all the polo and aristos and whatever.

I really don't think you can say he's alone out there, who knows what old friends he's in contact with! And there will be new friends and his own little family together with a wife of course. I've not seen his marriage under extreme pressure at all.

And the traditional royal christmas and other stuff, I bet he's glad to leave all of that tradition and restraint.
We all make our own traditions when we have children and that's what he'll be doing.

Personally I think they will flourish and grow, but there you go...we can't all agree with one another

He may have left but everything he does demonstrates that he still very much wants to be royal with all the prestige and priviledge that accompanies it. We will have to see how it pans out over the next few years. Because without his royal connections exactly what is he. A bit of a fool juggling outside a window.

Yes, he's still royal in his own head. I don't think he anticipated how quickly the loss of status would drop because in his head it was innate but he's a very ordinary man who has now rejected the basis of his own status but still wants the status itself.

surely he will always be a royal.
even though he has stopped working, he will always be a prince and the queens grandson.

@Roussette

Isn't it strange, I don't feel that at all. But I appreciate your post *@Anothermountain*. It was interesting.

I think the leaving was the moment he was waiting for most of his life, he's always been a square peg in a round hole within the RF and it took Meghan and him together to realise there was another way to live your life.

Personally I think there'll be huge relief and a sense of looking forward and not back to all the polo and aristos and whatever.

I really don't think you can say he's alone out there, who knows what old friends he's in contact with! And there will be new friends and his own little family together with a wife of course. I've not seen his marriage under extreme pressure at all.

And the traditional royal christmas and other stuff, I bet he's glad to leave all of that tradition and restraint.
We all make our own traditions when we have children and that's what he'll be doing.

Personally I think they will flourish and grow, but there you go...we can't all agree with one another

Yes Rousette I agree that there will be aspects of his life - Christmases at Balmoral for example - that he may be more than happy to leave behind! I was trying to express (not very eloquently) that having been steeped in tradition and having been used to a certain orchestrated rhythm in his former royal life, he may find it harder to adapt to a life of freedom, without fixed events punctuating the year, than your average ordinary Brit. And even the average ordinary Brit can find adapting to life in a new country quite a challenge.

I do agree with you though that some people find it easier to leave abroad than others. Harry hasn't had an ordinary home life, having shuttled back and forth to school, between his parents, to the different royal estates during the holidays. Maybe he will love having a settled home for once? He may be very adaptable to different situations. Quite a few people I know who attended boarding schools and who travelled around in the holidays, have become quite restless adults though.

I genuinely hope I am wrong and you are right and that they have a long and happy marriage. And as you say, they make their own traditions. I just happen to think the odds are against them rather.

Also, the friends thing. He has been plunged in to the world of celebrity where friendship depends (I assume) more upon status and money than genuine feeling. Who knows? He may be lucky and encounter a few genuine, discreet people who take him under their wing. On the other hand, he may be besieged by people who want to get to know him for rather ignoble reasons.

Time will tell I suppose. As I say, I do hope that you are right and they will flourish, but I have an uneasy feeling about it all!

Another good post from you (and yes it was eloquent)!
I'm typing on a phone so not so for me.

I suppose I imagine all those couples from different countries and cultures (this is very close to home for me) who just adapt and meet in the middle and basically work on making to work!
Very different for Harry, yes, but he is married to an American woman who will smooth the path for him I think.

Having been through what they had to endure with the press over here, and continue to do so, I imagine they are very wary as to who they 'let in'
Hey ho...it's a massive change but a welcome one I think, but we'll see!

He’s still royal in his own head. Very true.

Yes maybe Meghan will be able to help him negotiate all the difficulties. She seems very savvy. Here's hoping anyway! I just think if you wrote down two lists which describe circumstances and "ingredients" which potentially make a happy marriage, and one describing the opposite, then H &M would be in the latter list sadly. But again, here's hoping I'm wrong!