To wonder why Harry doesn't drop his titles now he's free of The Firm

[CateTown]

He and Meghan wanted the freedom to earn their own money and good luck to them there. He's confirmed two new roles and his new employers are introducing him as "Prince Harry, the Duke of Sussex".

For his self respect, why doesn't he ask to be called Harry Wales or Harry Mountbatten Windsor. Then he'd know he's being hired for his skills rather than being used for his royal connections.

Youcan take away HRH and it’s been done before eg Diana, Duchess of York.

Assume you mean Sarah? She wasn't mother to a future monarch, that might make a difference. Is she supposed to curtsey to her daughters?

@DrSbaitso

Youcan take away HRH and it’s been done before eg Diana, Duchess of York.

Assume you mean Sarah? She wasn't mother to a future monarch, that might make a difference. Is she supposed to curtsey to her daughters?

I meant Diana and Duchess of York. Both lost their HRH titles. One is the mother to a future monarch and one is not.

I meant Diana and Duchess of York. Both lost their HRH titles. One is the mother to a future monarch and one is not.

Ah, ok. But Harry was born to his title, not married to it. And Meghan is still married to him.

Ah, bless him - bet he'll smash his first tea run. It'll be managed with military precision.

@DrSbaitso

I meant Diana and Duchess of York. Both lost their HRH titles. One is the mother to a future monarch and one is not.

Ah, ok. But Harry was born to his title, not married to it. And Meghan is still married to him.

Yes, agreed. But HRH can be removed. I was replying in response to it being said it can’t. I can’t see the title prince would be taken away and the dukedom was a gift (although, admittedly, a gift due to the intention of carrying out duties as a senior royal).

Duchess of Windsor wasn’t HRH even though her husband was. Women who marry into the RF don’t tend to get treated well.

OP sounds really bitter. How is it any business of yours? Your taxes don't support him anymore so you don't get a say. I am sure that grates on your mind, but focus on your mental health as Harry would advise 🤷‍♀️

Duchess of Windsor wasn’t HRH even though her husband was.

Not saying it's right, but I can sort of see the logic to that one.

It would need a Act of Parliament or Letters Patent from HMQ (which I doubt she would ever do) or something to remove a title from a blood HRH or other title.
However if HRH or Prince is on your birth certificate as part of your name then you can still use it unless the law says differently.

Freshprincess

Most Americans won’t know who Harry Wales is

Mintymabel

Because they don't also have eyes? As soon as they see him, most will know who he is, unless they live under a rock.

I concur minty

Although MM was trying to tell us that she didn’t know PH from a bean in a tin. Or know about anything royal.

At least she managed to escape from under her rock long enough to eat a burger.

but focus on your mental health as Harry would advise 🤷‍♀️

I’m sure he’d advise it but it is a bit of a pity he didn’t appear to go all out himself when his wife said she was struggling...

@MoChridhe

OP sounds really bitter. How is it any business of yours? Your taxes don't support him anymore so you don't get a say. I am sure that grates on your mind, but focus on your mental health as Harry would advise 🤷‍♀️

Lol at me sounding bitter!

And I'll just pop along to our non existent HR dept to chat about my mental health. As Harry would no doubt advise

Yes, get rid of his HRH and Duke of Sussex. Where do I sign?

Disclaimer: I am a bit of a royal geek and this post has become rather long. The short story is that it is perfectly possible to have Harry's titles (both HRH & Duke of Sussex) removed.

The long story: HRH is governed by letters patent and is within the gift of the monarch. The Queen can issue letters patent to remove the HRH title without consulting anyone. Diana and Fergie are the most recent examples but the most relevant comparison to Prince Harry is actually the last Duke of Connaught, a great-grandchild of Queen Victoria, who was recorded on his birth certificate as HH Prince Alistair of Connaught in 1914. When George V issued his letters patent in 1917, limiting the title of Prince of Great Britain to grandchildren of the monarch, Prince Alistair was demoted to Earl of Macduff.

Duke of Sussex is more challenging and the Queen can't remove this without an Act of Parliament, unless Harry voluntarily disclaims it. Given that he is describing himself everywhere as Prince Harry Duke of Sussex, I don't see this as being likely. This is technically possible but I can't see the government either wanting to get involved or use parliamentary time to debate this.

The question is whether the Queen would want to do either of these things and I don't think she would unless she is forced into it, partly because I can't see her wanting to deal with the possible backlash from Harry and Meghan supporters, and partly because people would ask why Andrew remains HRH The Duke of York if Harry has his titles removed.

Thanks for your explanation @KatherineParr
Though why do they include the HRH & Prince/Princess bit on the birth certificate where it says name if the HRH/P is only just a title?
As far as I remember (I can't be bothered to hunt out all of our BCs right this minute) but I may be wrong, it doesn't have Miss or Master in the child's name section. You just put child's name e.g Tracy Jessica Beaker or Katherine Maud Parr etc?
I was assuming Prince was part of the name as well simply than just being a title?
Excuse me for being pedantic

Wouldn’t Harry have to renounce his titles if he became a US citizen though? America that famously got rid of the hated British Monarch have now got Prince Harry.

@TracyBeakerSoYeah it's not pedantic at all. You're completely right that we don't bother to put normal titles on birth certificates.

The slightly unsatisfactory but simple answer is that aristocrats and royals record titles and names differently to the rest of us. If you've got a posh title (as opposed to being plain Miss/Master) it's normally recorded in the name field along with the child's other names on official documents like passports/birth certificates etc.

The title (and the way aristocrats sign themselves) can change throughout their life, even if their surname usually stays the same. For example Princess Margaret's son (current Earl of Snowdon, used to be Viscount Linley) signed himself Linley on official documents, even though his name, as opposed to his title, was David Armstrong-Jones. Now he's succeeded as Earl of Snowdon he will be signing documents as Snowdon. He's always been David Armstrong-Jones, but he's never been known as such socially, or signed himself that way, as he's always used a title on official documents.

I feel like I've overcomplicated this explanation but the short answer is they do things differently to the rest of us!

@stairway

Wouldn’t Harry have to renounce his titles if he became a US citizen though? America that famously got rid of the hated British Monarch have now got Prince Harry.

He wouldn't have to renounce his titles to become a US citizen, what the Constitution says is that the US cannot GRANT a title.

Technically, titles don't 'exist' in the US and we aren't 'bound' by the etiquette surrounding them (except, I believe, in certain diplomatic situations). So his coworkers don't have to call him 'Sir' or 'YRH'. 'Just call me Harry' should be called just exactly that.

The US allows dual citizenship now too, so he wouldn't have to renounce his UK citizenship. But TBH I can't see him becoming a US citizen. Lots don't.

Thanks for your input Katherine

I wasn't suggesting the Queen remove their HRH or their titles, just that Harry not use them for work purposes. Obviously, those work offers would probably disappear without them but at least he'd know his true worth if he stopped trading on his royal name.

Question for you Katherine - is it because of George V that Kate and Meghan can't be referred to as Princess Catherine/Princess Meghan?

Interesting that PH uses his titles but Beatrice doesn’t for work

afiniti.com/team/beatrice-york

Not sure about Eugenie.

I like Beatrice's approach.

CateTown it's not related to George V as such, it's a very old fashioned anachronism that I personally think should be changed.

Under the George V letters patent, both Harry and William are entitled to the styles and titles of HRH and Prince as grandsons of the monarch, and as their wives, Kate and Meghan are both entitled to use their husband's titles. The difference is that under current tradition, as they have the titles through marriage, they can only be Princess William or Princess Harry rather than Princess Catherine or Princess Meghan, which feels out of date. It's similar to Samantha Cameron being known as 'Mrs David Cameron' rather than 'Mrs Samantha Cameron'. For similar reasons Prince Michael of Kent's wife is known as 'Princess Michael of Kent' rather than Princess Marie-Christine.

I think this would be quite simple to change and wouldn't even need a letters patent given that this would be a stylistic change rather than a substantial one, because they already have their husband's titles, just not in conjunction with their own first name. The Queen has done this on occasion for individuals (she allowed her aunt to be known as Princess Alice rather than Princess Henry) but she's not done this at large for all married-in family members. I think we're the only country in Europe that still does this.

Similarly to other posters, I think it's telling that Harry continues to use both the Prince and Duke of Sussex elements as part of his titles at work, unlike Beatrice and Eugenie.

I personally think the Queen should consider removing the HRH and leaving the Duke of Sussex element alone on the basis that a) this is simple to enact and b) non-royal peers are perfectly able to emigrate and make money. The Earl of Warwick and the Earl of Loudoun both spring to mind. Buckingham Palace aren't asking for my opinion though!

Yes, I think Kate should be styled Princess Catherine - no doubt the press will call her that when she becomes Princess of Wales as they did with Diana. I think a Hollywood based Princess Meghan might be too much to bear!

And it's not because she's mixed race or American before anyone chimes in!

@KatherineParr I am very much enjoying your posts. Thank you. :)

The problem is, once you start trying to update titles to make things more 'fair' or 'modern' where do you stop? By its very nature the aristocracy and RF is an unfair anachronism. I suspect this is the reason the queen doesn't want to make changes - it just draws attention to what outdated balderdash it is.

The problem is, once you start trying to update titles to make things more 'fair' or 'modern' where do you stop?

This is why people claiming it’s ‘unfair’ that Archie isn’t a Prince are wrong. It’s actually very fair. The protocol was changed for Louis and Charlotte; they are the exceptions, not him.

If Archie is entitled to be a Prince, so is Freddie Windsor, and Alexander Windsor, and Helen Taylor (well, not a Prince, but you get it). Could anyone pick them out of a line-up?