Harry and Meghan - everyone still being respectful please

[Oldbutstillgotit]

Lots still to talk about .

@Trut

I don’t think anyone likes people they perceive as smug. But most people don’t bang on about it, tearing the so called perceived smug person down on MN (well, unless it is their MIL 😃)

I mean, I find my neighbour unbearably smug, but I just roll my eyes and get on with it. I’m sure she has her good points too. I wouldn’t tear her down and scrutinise her actions and pretend to guess her motivations. That would be odd behaviour!

Similarly, I find loads of political and movie celebs smug and opinionated, lacking self awareness. But I wouldn’t participate in 200 threads about it. That would be OTT and obsessive.

So why this persistent criticism of MM? I feel there are elements of “she should know her place” as a woman and she should doubly “know her place” as a mixed race woman. And I think, in part, her perceived smugness and perceived hypocrisy seem to irritate people so much (I mean, newsflash - political/celeb is smug and hypocritical -yawn!)

We all have biases and internalise social misogyny and racism. So no harm in us having a little humility about our own beliefs and behaviour and willingness to accept that we too don’t always come from a “pure” or self reflective place!

‘Empty’ vessels making noise can also be applicable for those who constantly and vocally criticise her on multiple threads, no? I mean we all have our life experiences and to call anyone an empty vessel is quite derogatory and dismissive. And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s life experiences

So, I'll explain my interest.

I find her and Harry's behaviour fascinating.

For me, this is a story about privilege being re-positioned (in a cunning way) as a handicap and the execution of their plans as a form of social justice. Except for me it isn't - at all. Anyone who isn't on board with their plans is seemingly branded 'racist.' Also interesting, and thought provoking, but off base (IMO.)

They didn't really hit my radar in a noteworthy way (I was a fan, broadly speaking) until the extraordinary social media announcement on Instagram regarding their cherry picking of the bits of the RF they liked and those they didn't. At which time I looked at their new website, aghast. Turns out the Queen and grey men in suits did too. Interesting way to play things, act now and apologise later. I didn't much like that approach to life and tax payers money.

It emerged through these discussions that Harry really didn't seem to have a clue what was involved in the role of being a prince of the realm, from the perspective of how much went into the detail of making his life happen the way he was used to (security etc), or if he did he didn't care and thought the rules could bend to his whim. Again - fascinating.

Then you have the whole privacy angle and the court cases. For me, the judge's statements confirm what I suspected - this isn't about privacy in a practical sense, but about control. A rich person's version of privacy, in other words, which often doesn't square with the man on the street's view of a free press. I think a free press needs to be protected from the rich, the great and the good who see it as a bit of a tool that can be used to their own ends until they decide otherwise. We'll see how things play out here, in this case.

Does that help?

@Trut

I don’t think anyone likes people they perceive as smug. But most people don’t bang on about it, tearing the so called perceived smug person down on MN (well, unless it is their MIL 😃)

I mean, I find my neighbour unbearably smug, but I just roll my eyes and get on with it. I’m sure she has her good points too. I wouldn’t tear her down and scrutinise her actions and pretend to guess her motivations. That would be odd behaviour!

Similarly, I find loads of political and movie celebs smug and opinionated, lacking self awareness. But I wouldn’t participate in 200 threads about it. That would be OTT and obsessive.

So why this persistent criticism of MM? I feel there are elements of “she should know her place” as a woman and she should doubly “know her place” as a mixed race woman. And I think, in part, her perceived smugness and perceived hypocrisy seem to irritate people so much (I mean, newsflash - political/celeb is smug and hypocritical -yawn!)

We all have biases and internalise social misogyny and racism. So no harm in us having a little humility about our own beliefs and behaviour and willingness to accept that we too don’t always come from a “pure” or self reflective place!

‘Empty’ vessels making noise can also be applicable for those who constantly and vocally criticise her on multiple threads, no? I mean we all have our life experiences and to call anyone an empty vessel is quite derogatory and dismissive. And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s life experiences

There is as much online 'chatter' about other smug, hypocritical and spendthrift people in the public eye as there is about HaM. That's the whole point of 'celebrity'. When the Beckhams' publicist foregrounded them front and centre at every opportunity, people talked about that. Right now, it's the turn of HaM and their publicity team. I am not sure that HaM would thank the people on these threads who come on desiring a reduction in time spent discussing them!

There is as much online 'chatter' about other smug, hypocritical and spendthrift people in the public eye as there is about HaM. That's the whole point of 'celebrity'. When the Beckhams' publicist foregrounded them front and centre at every opportunity, people talked about that. Right now, it's the turn of HaM and their publicity team. I am not sure that HaM would thank the people on these threads who come on desiring a reduction in time spent discussing them!

Also very true.

@ Trout
I have been interested in what HaM have been doing since they were disrespectful to an elderly lady, flounced off with tax payers money’s and then deciding to tell the rest of us how to live our lives whilst all the time doing pretty much the polar opposite themselves. They were meant to be a part of the Royal Family which is a role that comes with certain expectations and they did not fulfil any of these but still expect the recognition and status afforded to them by this institution. I would have viewed them in the same light if M had been blond and if European descent or even if Harry had married a man. I am judging their actions. Please do not try to read my mind and tell me I am doing otherwise. They are actively seeking publicity and have done so since they left the country, so an ongoing discussion of their behaviour would seem to me to be a reasonable thing. The same as people discuss politicians and other celebrities.

Really interesting post inexcessive, thank you.

And wow StartUpRepair, I had totally forgotten about that. I think it’s that jumping on every bandwagon that leads to people questioning their motives. No-one questioned Harry’s commitment to Invictus in the past for example.

Oops! Sorry for the autocorrect typo @Trut

I am judging their actions.

This. And it’s mainly the actions of a privileged, white man that I judge (I also just members of the RF and other celebrities so this judging is not exclusive to anyone).

I feel there are elements of “she should know her place” as a woman and she should doubly “know her place” as a mixed race woman.

That may be what you feel, but it has no basis in fact.

@smilesy

@ Trout I have been interested in what HaM have been doing since they were disrespectful to an elderly lady, flounced off with tax payers money’s and then deciding to tell the rest of us how to live our lives whilst all the time doing pretty much the polar opposite themselves. They were meant to be a part of the Royal Family which is a role that comes with certain expectations and they did not fulfil any of these but still expect the recognition and status afforded to them by this institution. I would have viewed them in the same light if M had been blond and if European descent or even if Harry had married a man. I am judging their actions. Please do not try to read my mind and tell me I am doing otherwise. They are actively seeking publicity and have done so since they left the country, so an ongoing discussion of their behaviour would seem to me to be a reasonable thing. The same as people discuss politicians and other celebrities.

I think Smiley's measured response should be repeated ad nauseum, especially her point: I am judging their actions.

Apologies Smilesy for getting your name wrong, there must be something in the water tonight!

Facts are pretty simple -woman marries a man richer/better connected than her. She moves to his country. It doesn’t work out. They say that they have been not treated well. Husband and she move to her country instead with their baby. They still benefit from husbands money and connections.

Most other stuff on these threads is an extrapolation and interpretation, which is often expressed as OMG, look what she/they did now (eg, they said be kind!!! But they are not!!! How dare they!!!!). And our feelings regarding them ‘slighting’ tradition and royalty and manners and all sorts of personal slants on how someone ought to behave and other value judgements.

I appreciate a previous poster who was honest that some of her reaction to MM might be coloured by biased social norms. We all have them, whether we are white, green, black or purple.

Have your say, but at least see it as such.

But you Trut are imposing your interpretation on me. It may be important to you that she's biracial, but I don't care in the least.

@Trut

Facts are pretty simple -woman marries a man richer/better connected than her. She moves to his country. It doesn’t work out. They say that they have been not treated well. Husband and she move to her country instead with their baby. They still benefit from husbands money and connections.

Most other stuff on these threads is an extrapolation and interpretation, which is often expressed as OMG, look what she/they did now (eg, they said be kind!!! But they are not!!! How dare they!!!!). And our feelings regarding them ‘slighting’ tradition and royalty and manners and all sorts of personal slants on how someone ought to behave and other value judgements.

I appreciate a previous poster who was honest that some of her reaction to MM might be coloured by biased social norms. We all have them, whether we are white, green, black or purple.

Have your say, but at least see it as such.

I’m not sure I’ve seen OMG in response to any of their actions or anything to warrant that number of exclamation marks. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I mean we all have our life experiences and to call anyone an empty vessel is quite derogatory and dismissive. And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s experiences

My empty vessel comment was about people on the public eye in general, celebs etc. I didn't specify women or MM my point being they feel they always need to be saying things to get noticed.

internalise social misogyny and racism.

No internalised social misogyny or racism here - just a fascination with their flouncy departure from the UK, their need to pronounce on a range of issues which they have little expertise on and their desire to control the narrative. When that control goes awry they can conveniently dismiss it as hate - ignoring the hate that come from their own band of Sussex Squad cheerleaders.

If H had married Chelsea or Cressida and they had behaved this way, we would be saying exactly the same things. Our issue is their behaviour. H is still a member of the RF whether he likes it or not. He will also be in the public eye whether he likes it or not. He is sitting in his mansion as a result of his privilege, so for him to cross the line and to become involved in another country’s political election is unacceptable. And yes, telling people they should vote is involvement.

"Have your say but at least see it as such."

Right. Who else's "say" might I be having? Of course it's just my opinion. Just like what you've said is just yours @Trut and yours alone.

Oh, I see. I was supposed to acknowledge that whatever bias you were thinking of applied to my thinking too. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick with my own analysis. (Hope that's allowed?)

I work for an American investment bank, which I think often represents one of the most 'Alpha' sides of American culture (not all Americans). I see a lot of similarity with the way certain people pursue their agenda at work as to how Meghan is pursuing her own agenda.

A phrase I hear a lot is 'it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission'. The meaning being just do what you plan to do, others may object along the way but will eventually get on board. If they don't who cares. Just push on through and ignore the noise.

This attitude is accepted and admired in certain parts of American culture. A get the job done attitude. Outside of this culture it is seen as incredibly arrogant and dismissive - and as a PP said completely lacking in humility.

I have always thought the response to Meghan was about a US and UK culture clash rather than about race. Meghan's confidence in the global value of her own opinions comes across as grandiosity through the lens of UK culture. In Meghan's eyes perhaps the humility of even Princess Anne saying she waited ten years before feeling up to speed with Save the Children looks like a squandered opportunity.
Weird writing humility and Anne in the same sentence but I think in saying that she showed such huge respect for the people who actually do the work.

Completely agree and in my experience it is the culture of a certain type of privately educated, predominantly white privileged American. Born to be successful, with absolute self assurance of their place in the world and the value of what they are saying. I wonder if fraternities have an influence in this.

I see young grads talking nonsense with absolute authority and unquestioning self belief. When things go wrong there is no apology or recognition - quite often an attempt to throw the person who discovered the problem under the bus whilst they change tack and move on to the next thing.

@OVienna - I think your points are good and well put. They are enormously privileged, yet somehow see themselves as perpetual victims. They are campaigning social justice warriors, so every critic is racist, misogynist or otherwise a hater. There are several blogs and websites that are very pro Meghan and have the same narrative - she was driven out of the UK by racism, Harry was thrown under the bus.

Facts are pretty simple -woman marries a man richer/better connected than her. She moves to his country. It doesn’t work out. They say that they have been not treated well. Husband and she move to her country instead with their baby. They still benefit from husbands money and connections

I think that the final sentence in this quote is the sticking point for many. Interest in them would wane naturally, after a certain amount of exposure, like it has in the Beckhams, were it not for the fact that the Brits are paying for these two from their taxes. People are very aware of the ramifications of having to pay for public figures - whole organisations (Taxpayers' Alliance) are set up to deal with these issues. People mind very much having to do this. These two aren't even here anymore to represent any kind of 'value for money', and, indeed, are tarnishing a whole country by association. As a Brit, I am embarrassed about the image of Britain that these two portray to the rest of the world. Personally, I wish they'd just go away. We have enough problems without becoming a laughing stock for everyone else.

It's worse than a laughing stock, Barleylemon, it's the narrative of being driven out by a cruel family and a racist nation. Many American bloggers/commentators are lapping it up.

@SunnyDayatSiestaBeech

I work for an American investment bank, which I think often represents one of the most 'Alpha' sides of American culture (not all Americans). I see a lot of similarity with the way certain people pursue their agenda at work as to how Meghan is pursuing her own agenda.

A phrase I hear a lot is 'it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission'. The meaning being just do what you plan to do, others may object along the way but will eventually get on board. If they don't who cares. Just push on through and ignore the noise.

This attitude is accepted and admired in certain parts of American culture. A get the job done attitude. Outside of this culture it is seen as incredibly arrogant and dismissive - and as a PP said completely lacking in humility.

Yes, I also agree completely with this analysis. This resonates. It is this sort of 'company culture' that doesn't align with the way the royal family is run although it's often spun as the sign of a 'go getter/proaaaactive.' If you don't want to bend to their will, the implication is you're reactionary or lazy or worse.

A little more - watch and learn- would have gone a long way here, in my opinion. The cultural exchange of ideas was - seemingly - going in one direction.

I haven't lived in my country of origin (the US) since 1992. I've lived in a few countries along the way. You do meet people like this, in these environments, who have what feels like a panicky response to not being able to control the situation around them. They feel exposed, on the spot, etc. This feels like a lash out to me. That's understandable. But externalising accountability for all of her discomfort is what is out of order, in my view.