Harry and Meghan - everyone still being respectful please

[Oldbutstillgotit]

Lots still to talk about .

The cultural exchange of ideas was - seemingly- going in one direction.

Aargh posted too soon! The quote I've just posted really hit the nail on the head for me about MM. The RF is an extremely successful institution, despite its faults. The Queen is one of the most famous and respected women in the world and she's earned that. MM would have done well if she'd taken a few leaves from HMQ's book but it seems to be very much that H and M were determined to do everything differently. When it didn't go well, it was someone else's fault. For example they buggered up the announcement of Archie's birth. Why couldn't they just use the tried and tested method of announcing it via BP? They didn't have to pose on the steps- that's not actually a tradition. M really didn't get to know the RF before deciding she'd be different.

I think someone else has said what I meant to say above which is that definitely, MM has experienced racism and gender bias. I would never deny that. And up-thread I acknowledged that I may be guilty of that too. I do also think like others have said that some of what has happened is a UK/US culture clash and to a smaller extent a generational one too. But underlying all that is the monumental hypocrisy of preaching about equality without ever defining it and having attained a voice having married into a hereditary monarchy which is the absolute antithesis of equality OR of merit. And by the way I apply that hypocrisy to Harry equally - at the very least, surely if they carry on, at some point they have too acknowledge that, somehow. So there's quite a lot going on.

@Trut

I don’t think anyone likes people they perceive as smug. But most people don’t bang on about it, tearing the so called perceived smug person down on MN (well, unless it is their MIL 😃)

I mean, I find my neighbour unbearably smug, but I just roll my eyes and get on with it. I’m sure she has her good points too. I wouldn’t tear her down and scrutinise her actions and pretend to guess her motivations. That would be odd behaviour!

Similarly, I find loads of political and movie celebs smug and opinionated, lacking self awareness. But I wouldn’t participate in 200 threads about it. That would be OTT and obsessive.

So why this persistent criticism of MM? I feel there are elements of “she should know her place” as a woman and she should doubly “know her place” as a mixed race woman. And I think, in part, her perceived smugness and perceived hypocrisy seem to irritate people so much (I mean, newsflash - political/celeb is smug and hypocritical -yawn!)

We all have biases and internalise social misogyny and racism. So no harm in us having a little humility about our own beliefs and behaviour and willingness to accept that we too don’t always come from a “pure” or self reflective place!

‘Empty’ vessels making noise can also be applicable for those who constantly and vocally criticise her on multiple threads, no? I mean we all have our life experiences and to call anyone an empty vessel is quite derogatory and dismissive. And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s life experiences

We all have biases and internalise social misogyny and racism.

So your sentence here says everyone on this thread is racist and that’s allowed to stand? @MNHQ why?

I think there is also a culture clash in understanding the issues. Many in the US don't understand the role of the monarchy, the issues with funding and accountability, the delicate balance of their diplomatic role.
Meghan was the first time they were interested and so assumed any criticism was new and personal- completely unaware of the context of the RF for the UK because there are no comparables in the US.
US 'royalty' are celebs, actors, politicians- none of whom are funded by the country in the way the RF are and none of whom are as important on the world stage as the Queen. None of whom can threaten a centuries old institution with an ill-judged statement.
Add to that, people like the PP who relate to H&M like Mills&Boon characters. They're not going to view any of this through the same lens as people who study or are interested in law, politics, history, the media, governance. Instead, they don't understand why this isn't just a fairy story. They obviously missed all the history and politics lessons about constitutional monarchy. Presumably they're unaware of the many books, academics and analysis on the RF, its role, its significance, its future. They ignore the significance of Levenson for press freedom and intrusion.
It's actually quite enlightening to see that some people's lack of knowledge and need for a 'happy ever after' is fuelling their overly emotional responses.

And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s life experiences I'd be interested in hearing more about Meghan's life experiences. I'm not so interested in hearing Meghan lecturing me about how I should live my life.

Add to that, people like the PP who relate to H&M like Mills&Boon characters. They're not going to view any of this through the same lens as people who study or are interested in law, politics, history, the media, governance. Instead, they don't understand why this isn't just a fairy story. They obviously missed all the history and politics lessons about constitutional monarchy. Presumably they're unaware of the many books, academics and analysis on the RF, its role, its significance, its future. They ignore the significance of Levenson for press freedom and intrusion. It's actually quite enlightening to see that some people's lack of knowledge and need for a 'happy ever after' is fuelling their overly emotional responses

These are such good points, well made. "Just cut the bloody ribbon, Meghan, or go and sit on a stump with the Beavers, and then go home to your palace".

Trut your post was so full of exaggerations and inaccuracies that it's taken me a while to decide whether to respond at all, but here goes:

I don’t think anyone likes people they perceive as smug. But most people don’t bang on about it, tearing the so called perceived smug person down on MN (well, unless it is their MIL 😃)

I don’t think people “bang on” about MM being smug. I think you’ll find it has been mentioned a few times but it is not one of the crticisms which comes up regularly, or even often.

I mean, I find my neighbour unbearably smug, but I just roll my eyes and get on with it. I’m sure she has her good points too. I wouldn’t tear her down and scrutinise her actions and pretend to guess her motivations. That would be odd behaviour!

Your neighbour and MM are not comparable. Only you know how unbearable she is to you.

Similarly, I find loads of political and movie celebs smug and opinionated, lacking self awareness. But I wouldn’t participate in 200 threads about it. That would be OTT and obsessive.

200 threads? Are you sure? And which posters are you accusing of participating in all 200?

So why this persistent criticism of MM? I feel there are elements of “she should know her place” as a woman and she should doubly “know her place” as a mixed race woman. And I think, in part, her perceived smugness and perceived hypocrisy seem to irritate people so much (I mean, newsflash - political/celeb is smug and hypocritical -yawn!)

This is plain nonsense. The criticism is equally applied to H. I notice you don’t mention him, or his colour. If a person who happens to be a WOC criticises him, are we to assume that is down to bias and racism?

We all have biases and internalise social misogyny and racism.

No we don’t.

So no harm in us having a little humility about our own beliefs and behaviour and willingness to accept that we too don’t always come from a “pure” or self reflective place!

No-one has claimed this, but’s it’s a giant leap to assume that that always includes racial bias.

‘Empty’ vessels making noise can also be applicable for those who constantly and vocally criticise her on multiple threads, no?

No, if the criticism is evidence based, which it often is.

I mean we all have our life experiences and to call anyone an empty vessel is quite derogatory and dismissive. And it is worth reflecting why we would be so dismissive of another woman’s life experiences.

It is dismissive to describe someone an empty vessel, I agree. However, it has nothing to do with her being a woman, and everything to do with her constantly vocalising her every thought, whim and opinion, without any apparent expertise to back it up. And that is the epitome of an empty vessel.

More of an essay than I would have wished, but I hope that clarifies.

I think a number of people in the Uk and US and else where have reservations about a monarchy and would prefer a system based on merit (not birth) from the very top. So yes, they don’t value royal traditions.

I for one, am glad that some women are standing up for their own mental health and saying fuck off to those that step into their boundaries, whether it is their spouse, line manager, mil, the PM or the queen.

It is a fundamental belief that we are all born free and equal and a monarchy is contrary to that. So yes, many of us have no issues that MM is not following patriarchal and prejudiced Traditions’.

Derxa, I agree, iMM often comes across as earnest and patronising. I find PC comes across as quite arrogant as well. But it is mildly irritating at most, and I'm sure they mean well and and it all has minimal impact on my life.

It is a fundamental belief that we are all born free and equal and a monarchy is contrary to that. So yes, many of us have no issues that MM is not following patriarchal and prejudiced Traditions’

Why did she willingly enter into it, then?

...and (at least initially) very much intended to use the platform of the royal family for future ventures?

What's your reaction to the legalise statement they made that the Queen 'doesn't own the use of the word Royal outside of the UK', for example, or the emphasis that Harry is still sixth in line to the throne, after the 'Sandringham Summit'?

We go round in circles here. This goes right back to their initial statement and the plans as they were originally laid out in the website, before they got pared back. There was no intention for Harry and MM to shed the patriarchal and prejudiced Traditions off in their entirety, just the ones they felt were too constricting - for them.

This is the part I find so difficult to grasp. If they'd bowed out of the titles at the get go and hadn't spend thousands on the SussexRoyal branding as part of their global launch, in the run up to their alleged 'exit' we'd be having a very different conversation now.

The court case is ongoing and it is interesting, as a pp said, for the legal precedent it will set.

This goes right back to their initial statement and the plans as they were originally laid out in the website, before they got pared back. There was no intention for Harry and MM to shed the patriarchal and prejudiced Traditions off in their entirety, just the ones they felt were too constricting - for them.

This really is my issue with them. Harry wants to remain in succession but he doesn’t want any of the responsibilities or inconveniences that go with that. They wanted to do the fun, high publicity, dressing up and being photographed events but it was all on their terms. Does anyone honestly believe that the others enjoy doing all that drudgery or that they just accept it and get on with it.

I don’t care about the Prince/Duke/Duchess of Sussex but I do care about HRH and staying in succession - and the same goes for Andrew. If someone is not an active member of the RF, then the lose the HRH and position with it. You can’t have both in my eyes. If I was in line for a promotion at work, I wouldn’t expect to be able to leave and badmouth my employer yet still swam back years later and (if something had happened to the handful who had been ahead of me) take over as CEO. It’s just not how the real world works.

My thoughts exactly.

It was just so stupendously entitled to think they could do the fun and glamorous bits and dump the dreary old charities and trips to run-down bits of Britain.

I assume that the Sussex Royal thing was assumed to be a done deal which the RF, caught on the back foot, would meekly accept, but whoever was advising them went too far and it came across as laughably cheeky.

I think H&M have tried to make out as if they have got what the wanted from leaving the RF but I don’t believe they have. They might in the future, but that’s still uncertain and what they have and are going through, can’t be what they expected when they made their decision.

Interest in them would wane naturally, after a certain amount of time ... were it not for the fact that the Brits are paying for these two from their taxes

Interestingly, this is usually the point when we're told that they've paid Frogmore back, are now funding their own security and all the rest

It'll never happen of course - especially given the opacity of Duchy of Cornwall arrangements - but I'd quite like to see this proved. After all it wouldn't be the first time when the RF had employed smoke and mirrors when it suits

I think as part of the 12 month review, Harry should be asked to step away from the succession. How can someone who clearly has no respect for the Monarchy, ever lead it - albeit that it would only ever be under terrible circumstances.

I also think that HM should bite the bullet, and announce at the same time that Andrew will be removed from succession, until/unless his name is cleared.

Which would mean Beatrice would take Harry's place? She seems like a sensible young woman. Hope to God she would never be needed though.

@ajandjjmum

I think as part of the 12 month review, Harry should be asked to step away from the succession. How can someone who clearly has no respect for the Monarchy, ever lead it - albeit that it would only ever be under terrible circumstances.

I also think that HM should bite the bullet, and announce at the same time that Andrew will be removed from succession, until/unless his name is cleared.

Which would mean Beatrice would take Harry's place? She seems like a sensible young woman. Hope to God she would never be needed though.

I agree with you. I don’t even think Andrew needs to clear his name right now because he has stepped back which is the same as Harry, so by default that should be stepping back from everything which includes the line of succession. They should also lose HRH. After all, why should Kate have to bow to Harry if she sees him without William by her side? That’s just ridiculous.

I’d have no objections to Beatrice taking Harry’s place. She isn’t a working member of the RF but she hasn’t quit and isn’t in disgrace.

It's an oddly patrician approach to claim understanding and respect for royalty and celebs whilst failing to exhibit either. There's definitely a disconnect between the values some people espouse and the ones they reveal in their posting manner.

It never struck me that some people genuinely thought H&M were both a modern fairystory and a couple moving country because they didn't like the family business. It's a fetching tale that means no scrutiny of finances or royalty is needed.

People who project emotionally on to royals and their relationships, bemuse me. I was only ever interested in the power, the finances, the politics of the monarchy.

Puzzled
Interestingly, this is usually the point when we're told that they've paid Frogmore back, are now funding their own security and all the rest. It'll never happen of course - especially given the opacity of Duchy of Cornwall arrangements - but I'd quite like to see this proved. After all it wouldn't be the first time when the RF had employed smoke and mirrors when it suits

Well, quite. I am certain that no-one believes that we are not still funding them although we can, of course, all pretend that they have paid back blah blah

Beatrice wouldn't be "taking Andrew's place" in the line of succession, she's already in it, one place behind him, and her sister one place behind her, and loads of other people behind them (I don't know when/if they stop counting).
If either Harry or Andrew were removed, everyone behind them would move up a place, or two if H and A both stepped down.

@JaJaDingDong

Beatrice wouldn't be "taking Andrew's place" in the line of succession, she's already in it, one place behind him, and her sister one place behind her, and loads of other people behind them (I don't know when/if they stop counting). If either Harry or Andrew were removed, everyone behind them would move up a place, or two if H and A both stepped down.

I said she would be taking Harry’s place and she would be because she would move up three places (the precedent has already been set for the children of a member of royalty who abdicates also losing their place, so that would affect Archie) to be sixth, which is Harry’s current place.

@JaJaDingDong

Beatrice wouldn't be "taking Andrew's place" in the line of succession, she's already in it, one place behind him, and her sister one place behind her, and loads of other people behind them (I don't know when/if they stop counting). If either Harry or Andrew were removed, everyone behind them would move up a place, or two if H and A both stepped down.

I said she would be taking Harry's place in the sense that she would become 6th in the line of succession - I am aware that she is already in the line of succession, following on from her father.

I thought right at the beginning that Meghan wouldn't want to live under the archaic rules of the RF and rightly so, neither would most educated, intelligent modern women but that's what is quite disappointing about how she has tackled it. She could have brought huge changes from within and been a breath of fresh air. I suppose she doesn't owe anyone anything but she could have became someone of real gravity here. I'm not hugely interested tbh nor have Mills and Boon fantasy for them but it is like watching a very odd Channel 5 afternoon movie that isn't following the formula

neither would most educated, intelligent modern women
Yy most people would struggle with it.

I think Archie would remain in the LoS even if Harry leaves. Not sure though.