Thread about Harry and Meghan that has no deletions

[OverUnderSidewaysDown]

Play nicely and don’t say anything that will get your post (or the thread) deleted. I’ll start. Archie is cute and it would be lovely to see him more often.

My DH had just started a new job & was doing night shifts. He came in at 6.30am & woke me up & said 'It's not me or any of the family but I've got some bad news.'
First thing I said was 'Has the Queen died?'
He said 'no it's' but I cut him off & said 'It's Diana isn't it?'
I don't know why I thought the Queen or Diana,

It's weird how when something really major or shocking happens like Diana, 9/11, 7/7 etc the moment you find out, all the details of that moment in time when you get told get sealed in your mind like a photograph/video.

I was alone as my flatmate was away, I had been clubbing the night before so got up about 10 and decided to read my book, no radio on nothing.

About 3pm I put the tv on and someone was saying ‘of course the Americans loved her’ - I put on teletext ( remember that!) and the headline read ‘Charles to go to Paris to bring back Diana’s body’

I remember sitting there absolutely frozen in shock.

I'd been staying at my bf's and popped into my DM's. She told me Diana had died and I was convinced she must have misheard the news. I couldn't believe it was true. We didn't even have time to discuss it as I was rushing away to meet old schoolfriends. It all felt surreal. This little pocket of shocking news, in the middle of a busy day.

I was completely bemused by all the big public displays of grief that followed. I couldn't relate to them. Shock? yy Sadness? yy because it was a tragic loss and she had two young sons. But all the flowers and tears and strong emotion ...I felt disconnected from all of that.

@KatherineParr4
Much as I would like to respond to your question, I am not going to, because I do not want to be accused of derailing the thread.
Needless to say, I just think everyone, whatever forum they are on should just get on with enjoying what they like about where they are. We can all co-exist on this planet without unpleasantness.

Diana.... I remember it so well. Woke with the kids heard it on the news, could not believe it. I do remember saying to the kids, on the day of the funeral, just remember this day because this will be something to tell your children. Only one DC remembers!

The public displays of grief, the calling for the Queen to come to London, all of that... I found too much. I'm not ashamed in saying I cried watching the funeral, anyone would watching those boys walking behind the coffin. It was a very moving day.

@katherineparr4 - I too would absolutely love an interviewer to ask for a more thought out and considered response from both Meghan and Harry on their position on equality and human rights. I think Meghan is intelligent and could cope with it. I would be astonished though if that were to happen.

I know this sounds a bit pretentious but I am much less interested in them as people though than what all the differing commentary about them says about our current society and politics. To publicly state that their brand of woke identity politics is largely nonsense seems to be read by some people as rather conservative and reactionary - and perhaps populist as it is seen as a reaction against 'political correctness.' It can be that of course, but it doesn't have to be.

Concern about criticising Meghan often seems also to come in part from the same place as the 'women should support other women' stuff which I also think is complete rubbish - I support people who I think deserve it but as a feminist I haven't suspended all critical judgement about how other women behave. That doesn't mean there should be a pile-on or that anyone should be demonised. There are though very few places in popular culture / the press which allow nuanced and sensitive debate about these things. It's a shame because I think this shuts down really important conversations including about what we mean by equality and how we can get there.

I didn’t agree with the increasingly hysterical demands for HM to return to London. She was a Granny supporting 2 devastated children and Balmoral was the best place for them given its remoteness.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8683695/Prince-Harry-upset-missing-trip-Balmoral-Queen-coronavirus.html

I know speculating is frowned upon on this thread but I do wonder if the penny is beginning to drop with H ?

Thanks for the reports. We've closed a few accounts for spamming/derailing/flouncing. Hopefully things will get back on track now. And please do continue to report any concerns.

i remember when Diana died, it was awful as we had just had 2 people we were really close to die. I think thats why a lot of people got swept up in the grief.
it allowed you to be sad.

[quote inexcessive]@katherineparr4 - I too would absolutely love an interviewer to ask for a more thought out and considered response from both Meghan and Harry on their position on equality and human rights. I think Meghan is intelligent and could cope with it. I would be astonished though if that were to happen.

I know this sounds a bit pretentious but I am much less interested in them as people though than what all the differing commentary about them says about our current society and politics. To publicly state that their brand of woke identity politics is largely nonsense seems to be read by some people as rather conservative and reactionary - and perhaps populist as it is seen as a reaction against 'political correctness.' It can be that of course, but it doesn't have to be.

Concern about criticising Meghan often seems also to come in part from the same place as the 'women should support other women' stuff which I also think is complete rubbish - I support people who I think deserve it but as a feminist I haven't suspended all critical judgement about how other women behave. That doesn't mean there should be a pile-on or that anyone should be demonised. There are though very few places in popular culture / the press which allow nuanced and sensitive debate about these things. It's a shame because I think this shuts down really important conversations including about what we mean by equality and how we can get there.[/quote]
I agree completely with what you say about being much less interested in this couple as people than the differing positions taking on their current choices.

My politics are centre-left. They have been for all of my nearly 50 years, I campaigned for sodding Dukakis. I understand where posters concerned about racism factors at play are coming from. Sitting where they are in the US Harry and Meghan will also have a front row seat to some of the current coverage on Kamala Harris. I will not link to any of it because it reaches new lows.

I am gobsmacked by what I consider to be a very peculiar and particular stubbornness in this couple's supporters to acknowledge the part that entitlement/abusive of privilege plays in the path they laid out for their lives in their Instagram announcement and on their website. This is different from arguing about where the blame for that may lie: with Harry or with Meghan.

There is a similar mindset with respect to their relationship with the press (regardless of whether a respected, high court judge weighs in, providing views which are available to the public to read firsthand.)

👍 very eloquently put ov

I didn't agree with calling for the RF to come down to London. The boys were in the best place for them. However I can't believe HMQ opposed Charles going to Paris to bring back Diana's body. I glad he followed his instincts. It was absolutely the right thing to do.

Must have felt hard for Harry yesterday. If I'd experienced what he had been through, I'd want to be amongst siblings/surviving parent as well as my DH & D.C.
Obviously I don't know what goes on in Harry's head but I'm presuming that he would feel the same.

OV and Katherine I very much agree with both of your excellent posts. I think this actually expresses how many of us feel, exasperated with certain actions and what differing reactions to them reveal about our wider society, less interested in them as individuals with character traits we may or may not find attractive.

@Myimaginarycathadfleas

OV and Katherine I very much agree with both of your excellent posts. I think this actually expresses how many of us feel, exasperated with certain actions and what differing reactions to them reveal about our wider society, less interested in them as individuals with character traits we may or may not find attractive.

Thank you - shame about the typos.

I was also looking forward to seeing responses to @inexcessive 's great posts.

@Oldbutstillgotit

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8683695/Prince-Harry-upset-missing-trip-Balmoral-Queen-coronavirus.html

I know speculating is frowned upon on this thread but I do wonder if the penny is beginning to drop with H ?

If I was Meghan I wouldn’t be bothered about missing out on a summer of hunting either.

I wonder whether they still would have attended as a family of three if the pandemic hadn’t happened. I can’t imagine things are that great between them all right now as a result of the recent books that have been published and H&M have just moved into their house.

@Myimaginarycathadfleas

OV and Katherine I very much agree with both of your excellent posts. I think this actually expresses how many of us feel, exasperated with certain actions and what differing reactions to them reveal about our wider society, less interested in them as individuals with character traits we may or may not find attractive.

Agreed.

I was also looking forward to seeing responses to @inexcessive 's great posts.

I'm so glad you posted this, OV, I should have credited inexcessive too for a really interesting perspective. Happy to put that right.

Oh dear, I could have sworn I formatted that properly.

Another one here appreciating OV and Katherine's posts.

A couple of posters here who are very interesting in defending HaM have said things along the lines of "why are people so obsessed with this couple?" I think some people are unhealthily obsessed, as you'll see in the case of quite a few celebrities--unhinged people writing about moonbumps and diagnosing narcissistic traits in Harry, Megan or both etc. etc.

However, there are a few of us here who don't actually have much interest in the couple but are genuinely quite interested in the reaction to them and to the wider debate about how they are to be discussed.

There have been discussions about racism and accusations of people being racist about Meghan Markle, and it's clear that people are interpreting racism in different ways. There are those who interpret racism narrowly---remarks about someone's skin color or hair, use of racist words and so on. There are also those who are thinking in terms of implicit racism - "When people say things like 'Meghan is a hypocrite' or whatever, it's racist because their racism is causing them to see her through a negative filter."

I don't for a moment doubt that implicit racism exists -- those studies which show resumes with identifiably black/Asian names getting callback less often etc. (to give just one example) appear to be very real and haven't been made up.

On the other hand, what do we do with that information and where do we go on from here? Is there a way to somehow distinguish, clearly, whether a criticism of a non-white person is motivated by the speaker seeing the person through the negative filter of racism or not? If not, how do we try to get rid of implicit racism, without creating a social paradigm where any criticism of a non-white person automatically creates accusations of racism?

I'm asking this as a genuine question. It doesn't really matter in the case of MM as she is not a person with any kind of important influence on our lives. But precedents established here could impact on cases where the person is of greater public importance, such as a politician.

On the other hand, what do we do with that information and where do we go on from here? Is there a way to somehow distinguish, clearly, whether a criticism of a non-white person is motivated by the speaker seeing the person through the negative filter of racism or not? If not, how do we try to get rid of implicit racism, without creating a social paradigm where any criticism of a non-white person automatically creates accusations of racism?

I think to begin with you need to acknowledge the source of your information about an individual to judge what filters and selective spin have led to your criticism. Much of the coverage on H&M is from the Daily Mail and they have a very obvious (and I believe implicity racist) bias. Many posters on here like to claim they have 'formed their own opinion'. But unless you have had direct dealings with the couple, any opinion is filtered through our media, and in case of H&M that is usually the red tops.

I could also make a general point about assuming good intent rather than looking for flaws and how we are more likely to give people we relate to (ie that seem more 'like us') the benefit of the doubt.

I fear society is getting to a point where it's not possible to criticise anyone without fear of being labelled racist, sexist, disablist, ageist, etc

Eg: "When people say things like 'Meghan is a hypocrite' or whatever, it's racist because their racism is causing them to see her through a negative filter."
It might be that people just think Meghan is a hypocrite. Lots of people are, regardless of their background.

Meghan is a hypocrite for her "linked not ranked" ramblings. She would be a hypocrite for what she said, regardless of her skin colour, sex, age......

JaJaDingDong but many people (indeed all of the Royal Family) could be accused of hypocracy. What is interesting is that MM enrages some posters to the extent that they need to start and contribute to thread after thread on the subject of her 'crimes' (such as they are), which seem pretty small beer, really. That is what intrigues me - both the level of vitriol and need to hunt out coverage to be further offended by, to the extent it appears to practically be a hobby. It is an odd phenomenon indeed.

many people (indeed all of the Royal Family) could be accused of hypocrisy

I agree, but they aren't because most (not all) of the RF don't constantly bang on about how much "good" they are doing, and how equal we all are, all the flipping time. They just quietly get on with it.

If it's reported, it's by the press, not by the RF members themselves.

For the more minor RF, eg Sophie, some of the work they do isn't even reported, or at least not headlines.

I'm sorry, but black, white, or anything else M&H bring criticism on themselves.

Interesting you don't consider other RF members may have press teams that issue press releases - they just 'quietly get on' with their visits to hospitals and charitys, it is so odd journalists know they are there. Indeed, the queen doesn't even realise her preachy wee message is broadcast to the nation every year - you'd think she would have spotted the camera by now