Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

@PyreneanAubrie i hear what you’re saying, but it gets my back up when people get cocker spaniels or labs and walk them on the lead because on inadequate training. Different dogs have different needs and I fail to believe any gundog is happy and satisfied with one acre and a few on lead walks.

I also find it intensely irritating when people find it amusing they don’t walk their dogs - when they are particular breeds - off lead and just go ‘well we can’t do it.’ If a trainer - who has no bond with the dog - can then the owner certainly should be able to, with effort. Poor exercise and under stimulation has, in my experience, been synonymous with poor behaviour and aggression.

I’d also add most of my foster dogs came to me only lead walked and, maybe it’s a huge coincidence but once they were off lead they were happier and their behaviour improved

@stayathomer
I was just saying most dogs aren’t trained to the degree op seems to assume they should be and most of the ones that are that well trained are highly reactive and have owners that are stressed/ very uptight. I was rambling really, sorry!
Thanks for the apology, I was a bit confused!
However, I would disagree with you about the well-trained dogs being the reactive ones, and their owners being uptight. I know a lot of very well-trained dogs, the vast majority of whom are social and confident. My dogs are decently trained, and I'm very relaxed when walking them because I trust them and can largely predict how they will respond in certain situations.

Honestly, put the time in. Keep it. Establish a recall. Your dog will appreciate it.

@PyreneanAubrie I understand what you're saying. I read something recently about how different breed types are more or less responsive to human signals (unsurprisingly, hounds are less cooperative than gun dogs - who knew?) and I know from having had a JRT and gundogs how different breed types can be. Even within the gundog breeds, you have everything from labs ('born half trained' as the saying goes) and spaniels ('die half trained', as the saying continues) to the sort of loons that I have (the saying doesn't extend to them, but might as well be 'Well, you can try'). There was a ridiculous study a few years ago which claimed that all breeds were much of a muchness and it was such utter twaddle that I couldn't believe that anyone took it seriously. Even if most modern breeds are relatively recent creations, breed differentiation began millennia ago when dogs began to be bred for different jobs. I'm not always convinced that people think hard enough about this when they think about getting a dog - I don't think we did, and we ended up playing catch-up.

I don't crate our puppies either (thought the last one nearly drove me to it). . Are you saying that 'teaching' is educating a dog as you go along and 'training' is doing specific things in specific blocks of time? If so, I do both.

We absolutely do not treat them like babies; that is something I loathe about modern dog ownership. Oh, likewise! Dogs need to be respected for what they are and handled accordingly, not infantilised. Mine get plenty of love and affection (one is currently asleep next to me and serving, uncomplainingly, as an elbow-rest) but they are treated as dogs and given plenty of opportunity to express their genetic drives.

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone I agree about the gundogs. They are so eminently trainable (even the more 'difficult' breeds like the one I have). I'd also agree that being kept on-lead isn't good for the mental well-being of many. many breeds (though as @PyreneanAubrie has clarified, all breeds are not the same).

Sorry, another long post. But this is a really interesting and thought-provoking thread. Also, my elbow-rest has had the temerity to get off the sofa and go and do something else!

I don't actually find it "amusing" or say "well we can't do it" but clearly you are not able to understand that some dogs have no recall or will switch it off, regardless of training. Over the years we have been to socialisation, training and ringcraft with all different trainers but the dogs are bonded to us and frequently click their ignore button for strangers. Ironically, the one bitch that had 100% reliable recall never went to a single class in her entire life, whereas her half sister went to classes, was shown and had no recall whatsoever. Yes, I could be talking complete bollocks but as it happens, I'm not. For us, classes made no difference, the outcome was far more dependent on the dogs individual temperament.

I do know, however, that I am banging my head against a brick wall every time I respond, and that you remain resolutely convinced that all dogs can be trained in exactly the same way, regardless of their instincts. And that all dogs need hours and hours of free running every day. Clearly, nothing anyone says is ever going to convince you otherwise. I'm sure you believe that you would have had every single one of my dogs walking to heel with you and running free and that they would have been far happier for it. That, of course, is your prerogative.

Anyway, sorry for wandering so far off-topic.

@PyreneanAubrie You make very good points and I hope I am correct in summarising you are quite rightly saying different breeds have different requirements and their dispositions to a certain extent decide the training requirements and finally what their exercise regime should be.

As I have said previously, the sporting groups is where I have most of my experience. From that hounds v terriers v gundogs are all very different - some can be trained easily others are almost untrainable. Would I let an HPR, for example, off lead following recall training - yes but would monitor its behaviour especially with such things as where the off walk is and the wind direction. Would I let a sight hound off in a similar area - probably not. As to the terriers - some of them I would not let off if I knew there were lots of rabbits about.

I only have one breed myself but have worked with many of the sporting breeds and will continue to treat each breed as an individual. It is the generic "all dogs should be taught a recall" which I become a little bit peeved about - the statement is such an easy one to throw at dog owners but for many they do not understand the complexities involved with achieving it. Most dogs are trainable but they are governed very much by what they were bred to do, you have to work with their instincts not try and make them cookie cutter trained dogs. So @PyreneanAubrie PMD would be trained differently and achieve different results than any of the gundog breeds for example.

I find it refreshing there are people posting on this thread that are very sensible as to their own breeds - so understanding LGD breeds cannot just be trained to be off lead whenever and wherever as it is not safe for them. Others understanding that the high scenting dogs will try and hunt for themselves if not given other mental stimulation etc.

So apologies I am inessay territory now, all of the above still to me, should not mean a blanket ban on dogs being off lead.

Finally, I do not crate my dogs, the same as others. They are caged in the car but not anywhere else.

Just jumping in to say I'm really enjoying the byways of this thread and the discussion about different breed needs. I knew nothing about giant herding breeds before meeting @PyreneanAubrie on another thread and I find it fascinating. I have a Lab/spaniel cross and haven't yet worked out which half of him is trainable 😄 but you can almost hear his spaniel brain clunk into place when he gets on a scent, or when he's playing with another spaniel, and it's like he's operating on a much more instinctive level than the rest of the time. In passing, @brushingboots and I met two spaniels on the way home yesterday who pulled so hard they were army crawling. I don't think we asked what their recall was like 😄

For Bill, with his breeding and working lines background, he absolutely needs off-lead time - not least as I only have a tiny gravelled garden. If I had an acre of land and no nearby off-lead space though, perhaps I'd think differently? And I definitely would reconsider if he were the kind of dog who's basically bred to disappear off into the distance! Plus of course my experience is shaped by the open spaces we do have on our doorstep - largely clear sight lines, so you have plenty of time to get your dog on lead, or pull in the long line, before meeting or passing a strange dog. Even though he (so far) has excellent recall, I'm not sure I would let him fully off lead in a less open environment; whereas of course for @PyreneanAubrie that might actually be safer, if she chose to do so.

Overall, the decision is one that has to come from your knowledge of your dog, his breed, his age, his reactivity, his recall, and the environment and context. I think problems arise when people make those decisions without taking all of those things into account, or even fully understanding them; or deciding that any poor consequences of those decisions is someone else's problem.

We have a beagle and while his recall is impeccable on an empty beach, take him to woodland or a nature reserve and all bets are off.

I personally believe it's actually the sign of an excellent owner to recognise that your dogs' recall is poor and to keep them on a lead for their own benefit. If you have a dog who needs to run and can't go off the lead then there are lots of options out there that don't involve putting them (or other people) at risk out in public.

Mine loves to free run but realistically we can't manage it everyday so we do other things which tire him out just as much. I don't believe I'm a bad owner for recognising that letting him off in certain places would be a real risk to his safety.

@coffeesaveslives I think your post is a perfect example of how the different breeds are and you are a good owner for understanding where your beagle will be fine off lead and when not.

Beagles are not an easy breed, their instincts are very strong.

On the beach there will not be much to test their instincts so they happily have a nice walk and all is well. In woodlands etc well for your beagle he thinks yippee this is much more like it! So you mitigate the situation and he stays on a lead or long line.

Thanks @schloss - like I said, take him to the right place and his recall is absolutely spot-on, but in woodland there's just too much temptation and he (quite literally) puts his nose down and switches his ears off, lol.

He can be impeccable up the woods when it's the right time of year, but for me, the risk of him spotting a deer or a rabbit is too much - it's not so much him running around the woods that worries me, more him getting onto a road or into a field with sheep or cows.

If people want to judge me for not letting him off, well, they can crack on lol.

I agree with @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone about people getting gundogs – spaniels specifically – and then not training them properly. It’s not fair on the dog, especially when unlike some breeds they are keen to learn and generally want to work with you to achieve that. I will admit to being a bit privately judgy of those spaniel owners who never let their dogs off because ‘it won’t come back’. Train it to, then! On some of the WCS Facebook groups you come across people with year-old dogs that have never been offlead and it makes me sad because there is usually no good reason why their owners can’t actually try, safely and in a controlled space, and teach their clever dog a basic life skill.

I also agree totally about different environments requiring different approaches for different dogs. I love beagles and @coffeesaveslives' beagle is, no doubt, wonderful, but they are bred to do the opposite thing to my spaniel so of course they need a different kind of approach. By contrast my girl is fab in woodland, as she demonstrated this morning and in her absolute element, but I don’t know what she’d be like on a beach (as I am a bad dog mother and haven’t yet taken her) so I’d be cautious, initially. She went offlead on her first ever walk and it’s lead walking we need to work on more, but it’s a work in progress.

@brushingboots I tend to agree with you about people not training dog, you are speaking about people getting working cockers or other gundogs, but the crux of the matter is do people know how to properly train a recall? The length of time it takes, how to do it, how to proof it etc? Gundogs are not born to respond to three pips of whistle and know it should come back!

Too many many think they are doing the right thing and take the puppy to their local village hall training course. Puppy does all the right things and will come back when called. The owner then thinks the same will happen when they let it off. Of course in many instances this isn't the case.

I suppose what I am saying is there is sometimes a lack of training and knowledge available for people to access. Of course some people cannot be bothered but this is not about them. There are people who are willing to train their dog but not have access to the correct training. There is a huge difference to a village hall 8 week training course and a full on gundog trainer. For your average spaniel owner neither are really appropriate to gain the well behaved dog they need.

Too many trainers treat dogs all as one breed and expect them all to behave the same.

Training dogs is a multi faceted situation requiring a good, willing owner, the same for the pup and a good trainer. If the stars do not align it is easy for problems to occur.

Edited to add - the popularity of the working cockers and sprockers etc also comes from too many being anti pedigree dogs. I have said on here previously I do not believe there should be working v show types of breeds, but for cockers that box has been well and truly opened so you work with what you have got, but how many people, on MN, and elsewhere say not not buy a "show" cocker buy a working one instead. For your average pet owner a cocker spaniel would work, but a working cocker is starting them at an disadventage right from the beginning as their instincts will be more stronger.

You make very good points and I hope I am correct in summarising you are quite rightly saying different breeds have different requirements and their dispositions to a certain extent decide the training requirements and finally what their exercise regime should be.

This as my understanding as well - @PyreneanAubrie was not talking about gundogs (like spaniels or retrievers) but rather PMD which are, of course, completely different.

My gripe is with gun dogs owners rather than hearing dog owners
@coffeesaveslives - I think this applies to you, beagles are different as they're scent hounds (not gundogs). My gripe is particularly with gun dogs (spaniels and retrievers which, by the nature of their work, should be able to come back...) and their owners who don't give their dog what they need.

I've had GRs and labradors for the past 40 odd years, usually two at a time, so I'm obviously biased in thinking they are the best breeds ever.
Two things from me, GRs, in my experience are far more likely to be little buggers than labs. They almost seem to have a superiority conplex😆
Secondly, all of my dogs have been well trained, all exactly the same, but one of my boys lost all sense of obedience if he got the scent of abandoned pizza, or chips - the rest, no bother, but he was a bin surfer at heart, and that never changed until his death a few weeks ago (my best dog ever).
All dogs are different, just like their owners.

My sons girlfriends parents bought a cockapoo who went from cute to a pain in the ass. A chewer, zero recall, they live in a rural farmland area.

My son grew up with working dogs, witnessed the training both at home and in the field. He set about training the owners and the dog. He got them to buy whistles, taught them all visual commands. Showed them how to get the dog to walk to heel on and off the lead. Taught them all recall. He was so tough on this puppy.

Guess what whenever he stays for the weekend, the dog is glued to him. Desperate to please. He takes her for long walks reinforces the lessons.

The owners have shown considerable improvement too 😂

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone "My gripe is with gun dogs owners rather than hearing dog owners" - the post I have just written about training should be of interest.

There is not point in the constant saying a gundog should be able to recall - owners need to be able to get to that point. For many owners they do not know how. I have helped people with an HPR - they thought they had done everything right taking the pup to puppy classes, other training classes, all of which is passed with flying colours. None of that transferred to real life situations. We went back to basics, not easy with a juvenile HPR, and after many months and hard work by the owners all is well. Should you criticise the owners - imo no, they researched the breed, went to a very reputable breeder and did what they thought was right.

I am not a trainer though, I helped these people as they are friends of friends.

I think we're sort of saying the same thing - people give up easily and say 'well my dog can only do it with a trainer not with me,' and my point is if they can do it with a trainer than they will, with persistence, learn to do it in general. I've had to go back to basics before - it's stressful and rubbish - but it's what a responsible owner should do.

I've seen it a few times recently on mumsnet - 'I'll go to puppy classes' and if anyone mentions training after or before that, people seem so surprised...

We have an HPR dog, a 21 month old Weimaraner.

His recall is heading toward 80% as he heads to 2 yo, and it's been a hard road to get this far.

We knew what we were taking on when we got him at 8 weeks but by god it's been tough!

What I think is the most important important thing to remember is that a dog and owner is a partnership.
He knows me as well as I understand him.

I know his triggers and always try (not always successful!) to pre-empt his behaviour.
Where I know his recall is not great I won't stand in the middle of a field screaming his name or blowing on the whistle (this works in some situations not so much others) so I use redirection.

I try my hardest to never put him in a position to fail.

As a result our walks are generally a success.
I dream of the day when I can just take him for a relaxed walk when I'm not watching what's going on in front, behind or beside me. If I'd have wanted that we wouldn't have got a Weimaraner 😜

Every day, every walk, is a training day.

We love the challenge and when he gets it right the hard work makes it all the sweeter

Yes we do agree! - People do give up, I suppose I have an element of sympathy with many of them if they think they have done the right thing by going to classes etc.

Maybe naivity on my part, but I believe the majority of dog owners do not go out and want their dogs to bugger off.

Dog training is hard work and dogs have a very good habit of being able to make you look a fool very quickly.

As to the training on offer, I cringe at some of the trainers (and their methods) and sadly know, particularly with the sporting breeds, unless they are very lucky the training is not going to work but for many owners they sign up and think it will.

You don't send your child to reception class at school once a week to ease them into education, so why do people expect a training session in a village hall once a week to be enough .

@schloss To be clear I am only talking about spaniels, as that’s what I’ve got and that’s all I intend to have!

I agree – a lot of people think puppy classes will crack it. I didn’t go to any as I figured I could teach her the basics and we started recall from day one and just worked on it every single day. The only formal lessons we’ve had are with our gundog trainer, and I am otherwise self-taught – mostly thanks to the internet, as well as books.

With that in mind I’m not sure I totally agree that there’s a lack of accessibility here. I definitely learned from other dog people I know, and I was in the right mindset to learn (which helped) but more often than not when I didn’t know how to teach something I just looked it up. I lurked on every dog forum on the internet – on here, on Facebook, on working dog forums, on Horse & Hound, everywhere – and googled every single issue until I had fixed it, or got to the point where I did want professional help. Our gundog trainer has helped me enormously with technical skills and has shown me what I’m doing wrong as a handler, but most of what my dog has learned has come from what I have taught her by researching and being bothered to put in the effort to do that. I’m very much a novice myself, she’s my first dog as an adult. I would contend that anyone with an internet connection can learn how to train a dog if they want to.

I think there are the resources and even the trainers out there is people look - you did it but sadly too many are not prepared to as they think the local village hall 8 week course will suffice. It is perception of how training works and too many people just misunderstand dogs need more than a basic training course - spaniels being one of the breeds who will need far more than that.

It is funny you mention Horse and Hound, their forums have some great advice. I mentioned it to someone who had just purchased an ESS - their response, I I do not agree with any form of hunting or country sports so will not look. Oh the irony having just purchased a dog which was bred for use in a shooting field!

@drivinmecrazy I try my hardest to never put him in a position to fail.

Music to my ears!

Too many trainers treat dogs as all one breed and expect them all to behave the same

Yes! This! Thank you @schloss This is what I've been trying to say in my own waffly way!

Sometimes the dog is a dog is a dog mindset drives me mad...it seems as if there are people telling us "these are the rules and you must do this otherwise your dog won't be happy". For first time owners that is a lot of pressure but we castigate them when they get it wrong.

Yes, there are lazy feckless dog owners out there to be sure, but there are also a lot who are doing their best to stick to the rules, to do everything by the book but are still not getting it right and they don't know why... And okay, some, like a couple on here, (Bupster & BrushingBoots I'm looking at you 😉) seem to have good instincts and get it pretty much right first time.

For many of us though, it's really only years later, often with the second or third dog, that you realise how much you got wrong the first time around and then you start to see that a certain amount of the rulebook is bullshit. There is no blueprint or one size fits all dog training manual, because the most important thing is understanding your own dog and how its brain works.

Recall and gundog training. If you are getting a working breed gundog recall training starts with the breeder. Do not get the puppy if the breeder is not doing this already.

Pips on whistle from 3 weeks of age as the puppies fed from the bitch. Pips on whistle when feed the solid food. 8 week old puppy going to new home recalled trained.

Research people need to research the breeder.

I don't think many people teach their dogs 'manners' either.

We've always been hot on our dogs behaviour. We've always taught him to sit and wait while on the leash for others to pass. The amount of people who walk past with their dogs letting the dog to approach ours is nuts. He's sitting patiently for them to walk past and they will often let their dog approach mine, often saying they just want to say hello.

NOT ON!! Just jog on!

My gripe is particularly with gun dogs (spaniels and retrievers which, by the nature of their work, should be able to come back...) and their owners who don't give their dog what they need.

The thing is, unless you know the owner and their particular circumstances, you can't know why a dog is being kept on a lead at that particular moment. The dog could be recovering from an injury, or a rescue who is nervous and bolts, for example.

I walk multiple spaniels and retrievers and while the vast majority can go off the lead, there is one who just can't. Her owners aren't stupid or lazy, they've had multiple other dogs who have all had impeccable recall, but this one has such a high prey drive that she will just run until she's injured (and has - she busted her cruciate chasing birds for miles down the beach once).

I personally hate how much judgement there is in the dog world - normally from people who should know better imo. You can't see someone with a certain breed and just assume it should behave in a certain way - animals just don't work like that.