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Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

237 replies

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 23/10/2024 07:32

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

OP posts:
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ddd4 · 25/10/2024 20:03

schloss · 25/10/2024 19:50

@ddd4 You have done really well getting FCR to 11 - long may it continue.

Yes, they've made it to 11, 12 & 13 and only one of the 3 was cancer. I put it down to low breeding coefficients, raw food and luck. Hoping these two do as well, particularly since they don't calm down until around 8 😂

schloss · 25/10/2024 20:12

ddd4 · 25/10/2024 20:03

Yes, they've made it to 11, 12 & 13 and only one of the 3 was cancer. I put it down to low breeding coefficients, raw food and luck. Hoping these two do as well, particularly since they don't calm down until around 8 😂

So good to hear, I am a FCR fan but know so many who have been lost at quite a young age, as you are aware normally to cancer.

I can fully appreciate the late maturers!

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 25/10/2024 21:33

@ddd4

I do think flatcoat breeders tend to be extremely thorough in vetting prospective owners. I feel like it's almost as easy to adopt a child as get approved for a flattie, so that might account for some of what you're seeing.

I think you’re onto something there tbh. Breeders if ‘rarer’ breeds do seem to be picky - perhaps because there’s less of them so they can afford to be and they’re ’better breeders’ in the sense of they don’t need to worry as much about competition and they do it for the dog. Labs and Goldie breeders are (literally) ten a penny and there’s lots of litters atm where puppies are 10-12 weeks and still not sold…

I’m tempted to ask for a photo tax since you mentioned them (they’re my all time favourite breed tbh - would have one in a heartbeat if I could!)

OP posts:
brushingboots · 25/10/2024 21:43

@TeenLifeMum I'm a member of various WCS groups on Facebook which I only ever lurk on and never post as frankly some are utterly insane, and it makes me very sad when I read of cockers not being able to be walked off lead.

To my mind there's something to be said for a pavement lead walk every now and again, stopping to sniff every single thing – it's good for manners and for loose lead walking, and the smells are all different because of people's driveways and cats and cars, but I don't do it often.

TeenLifeMum · 25/10/2024 21:47

brushingboots · 25/10/2024 21:43

@TeenLifeMum I'm a member of various WCS groups on Facebook which I only ever lurk on and never post as frankly some are utterly insane, and it makes me very sad when I read of cockers not being able to be walked off lead.

To my mind there's something to be said for a pavement lead walk every now and again, stopping to sniff every single thing – it's good for manners and for loose lead walking, and the smells are all different because of people's driveways and cats and cars, but I don't do it often.

Ddog does a bit of pavement walking but majority is of lead. Vet reassured me as local fb groups and mn seem to think dogs off lead is bad. I don’t bother arguing anymore.

marmamumma · 26/10/2024 05:04

My GR passed away from cancer at 9yo. She was definitely not the sweet tempered dog that people think they are.Quite snappy, but generally a sweetie. . Our next dog a Tibetan terrier was perfect ( please send me 50). Now we have a Dutch Shepherd ( huge but never even thought about biting anyone) and a choc lab who has growled twice - once becaue she didn't want her tablet and once because another dog stole hr carrot!
I know what OP means though. There is a massive golden lab living on the other side of the block from us.
You walk past and he bolts at the fence barking, you walk a dog past it's 10 times worse. I've seen the owner trying to walk him and he has to drag him away from every person and every dog.
He also barks all night when they have obviously had enough and put him out.
Not normal Labrador behaviour.
I agree OP something has gone wrong.

I hope its not as bad as the German Shepherds because the "loving breeders" sure fecked the showlines .

EdithStourton · 26/10/2024 08:07

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone similar near me - half a very wel-bred springer litter from a reputable breeder still unsold.

I have finally remembered that we do have some dickhead labs around here, but they are nothing new. By one of our walks one household owns two or three at any given moment, has done for years and years, and the dogs are entirely untrained and never off the lead despite there being off-lead walks literally on the doorstep ( and I mean literally: you could tell a well-mannered dog to wait as you opened the door, check the lane (a track at this point) and heel then across to the fields and footpaths and just go). They bark like bloody lunatics and pull and jump around when we encounter them. I get my two off the path, sit them up and wait it out.

coffeesaveslives · 26/10/2024 09:03

I was reminded of this thread yesterday when I was walking two dogs off the lead in the local dunes.

I spotted a lady with three dogs (two on lead) up ahead so called mine back and put them on their leads. These two (massive) Labradors then spotted us, yanked their leads out of her hands (nearly pulling her over) and charged over to us.

They were generally friendly but incredibly boisterous. She couldn't get them back for a good few minutes - luckily mine were good with dogs and just stood there looking a bit bewildered, but if my dog had been fearful or old or something, I dread to think of the outcome.

wiesowarum · 26/10/2024 11:07

BirthdayRainbow · 24/10/2024 21:54

Mine is intelligent since she can count, knows directions, knows letters and understands hand signals..

Clearly yours is well above the average in skill. Is she still hairy and smelly? I imagine so.

PyreneanAubrie · 26/10/2024 12:42

wiesowarum · 26/10/2024 11:07

Clearly yours is well above the average in skill. Is she still hairy and smelly? I imagine so.

To be fair, a lot of men are hairy and smelly also...😬

ejsmith99 · 26/10/2024 13:10

Goldies are becoming a huge problem in the US, it is being blamed on por breeding, particularly the Amish puppy Mills. I agree with the spaniels, a few years ago I would always take a detour around them because so many were aggressive. They do seem to have chilled a bit

ddd4 · 26/10/2024 13:21

wiesowarum · 26/10/2024 11:07

Clearly yours is well above the average in skill. Is she still hairy and smelly? I imagine so.

Also known as furry and fragrant 😂

But more seriously, I often find the 'non-shedding hypoallergenic' breeds to be extremely smelly.

I do think smell is partly down to diet. I'm not an ambassador for raw feeding, but once we switched to that, our flatcoats' smelliness decreased massively. Plus, they're often quite pleasantly scented from shampoo due to their penchant for rolling in things

ddd4 · 26/10/2024 13:24

ejsmith99 · 26/10/2024 13:10

Goldies are becoming a huge problem in the US, it is being blamed on por breeding, particularly the Amish puppy Mills. I agree with the spaniels, a few years ago I would always take a detour around them because so many were aggressive. They do seem to have chilled a bit

Relatives in the US have had issues with goldies in recent years. My in-laws, who have always had them, had to have a young one pts due to aggression recently. Other family members had one develop a cancer at 2 and then went straight back to the breeder, which was almost definitely an Amish puppy mill, given their geographic location. The breeder 'just happened' to have several older pups available.

Newpeep · 26/10/2024 13:28

As an agility trainer it’s WCS bought by people who have no idea of their needs or breed traits. When I wanted a small active and fit dog I went terrier as they are easier to train and have an off switch. Mine will walk all day or sleep all day depending on what we want to do (as long as her general nerds are met). WCS are insane. Many are presenting with significant health issues too.

I have a Pavlovian response to the sound of a whistle. It usually means we’re about to be assaulted by a gun dog with no idea of what that whistle means as it’s not been trained 😬

Purplecatshopaholic · 26/10/2024 13:39

Loads of dogs near me including quite a few goldies. They generally seem a bit thick and defo very boisterous when younger. Frequently out off-lead with someone who can’t control them but stands there shouting their name while getting ignored as the goldie hassles my on-lead dog.

DominoRules · 26/10/2024 15:21

@newpeep yes I do agree on the WCS, I know loads and a fair few have issues. It always surprises me as half the time I see a WCS while out with my Springer and the owners comment on Springers being crazy and how do I manage while I look confused at the fact they have a very similar dog 😂 however I do use a whistle but mine does actually listen and do what it’s asking him for I promise!!

wiesowarum · 26/10/2024 17:28

ddd4 · 26/10/2024 13:21

Also known as furry and fragrant 😂

But more seriously, I often find the 'non-shedding hypoallergenic' breeds to be extremely smelly.

I do think smell is partly down to diet. I'm not an ambassador for raw feeding, but once we switched to that, our flatcoats' smelliness decreased massively. Plus, they're often quite pleasantly scented from shampoo due to their penchant for rolling in things

I think all animals, including mammals, smell to some extent, and I just don't really enjoy dog smell or hair. We had a beautiful and amazing rescue collie x spaniel, she was intelligent and loyal but boy did her hair and odour get a tad annoying at times!

PyreneanAubrie · 26/10/2024 17:39

Regarding smell. we think our four bitches have all had a much stronger body odour smell than our four dogs, who hardly seemed to have any smell at all. Presumably this suggests a hormonal element, but I cannot say if the same applies to all breeds or not.

stayathomer · 26/10/2024 17:50

I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own

Op 95% of the population are ill equipped to have dogs. We’re not trainers, not vets, not breeders- we’re normal people who hope we click with an animal we intend to look after and be a team with. I have a cocker spaniel- we’ve done training classes since he was old enough and he looks trained to people who come in- go to bed, sit, stay etc etc, but still no recall and he’d ignore us out in the wild if he got a better offer😅😅😅 Stop judging people! Ps I will add that the majority of reactive dogs we’ve encountered are obviously trained and very highly strung, as are the owners- they say ‘my dog is reactive’ as a dog prances to heel alongside them. So they’re the owners you want for dogs, but they generally have the gs, the Rottweilers, the huskies. The gr, cs, cockapoo owners are people like me who are more relaxed and so will never have our dog fully fully trained (and possibly more on edge!) It’s all chicken egg really- reactive dog, by the rules, unforgiving owner?

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 26/10/2024 19:34

@stayathomer tbh no - I’ll keep judging people who get living, breathing, animals because they view them as a fashion statement or ‘want a dog.’ Your dog should be fully trained and I think it’s pretty poor you find it amusing your dog can’t even do a basic skill that is essential for it being off-leash and living the life it deserves.

But this thread is about aggression - not poor training. 😃

OP posts:
stayathomer · 26/10/2024 21:18

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone

Our trainer can get him to come back, we can’t. Like I said the general population aren’t dog whisperers. I think people need to let go of the idea that all dogs need to be let off leads in public, he definitely doesn’t, we live on an acre of land and he gets a very good walk every morning, he gets played with most days and a few minutes of training daily too! Plus up until about a month ago he went to physical training classes once a week (classes off for the moment as the trainer has personal problems).

I think you need to relax with your judginess and attitude (I know there’s no way of saying that nicely so I am sorry)

EdithStourton · 26/10/2024 21:51

@stayathomer
I'm not quite sure what point you're making in your first post. That most people are so inept that they shouldn't have dogs? That people with badly-trained dogs have dogs that aren't reactive, whilst the well-trained are loons?

IME the untrained dogs - the ones with crap recall and no manners - tend to be the ones who bark their heads off at my two dogs. A yorkie with rubbish recall got gobby this afternoon with one of my dogs, who was sitting at a distance from me waiting her turn while I did a spot of training with the other one. He got to within about 15' of her and she just looked at him with bored displeasure as he barked his tiny head off. Young man, I so can't be bothered with that sort of nonsense any longer, just trot along, will you - and take your noise with you.

I'd say that a good 80% of the pet-dog owners that I know are perfectly well-equipped to own a dog. They walk their own dog regularly, it has reasonable recall, isn't too terrible on the lead, doesn't bounce rudely all over people, and is generally pleasant to be around. This goes for everything from cockapoos to Bernese mountain dogs by way of labs and GSDs. The other 15-20 per cent includes people who have more dog than they bargained for (I feel for them, I have been there), some people who don't seem willing to address their dog's issues, not even by avoiding certain situations (little barky yorkie this afternoon could have got a nasty telling-off from a dog with a low tolerance of bad manners; luckily mine has mellowed with age), and a very small minority who shouldn't be allowed a goldfish, never mind a dog.

As for I think people need to let go of the idea that all dogs need to be let off leads in public I 100% disagree. Most of us don't have an acre of land, and many breeds need a lot of free running for fulfilment and sanity, and virtually all dogs benefit from it.

I don't plan on letting go of the idea that people should train their bloody dogs. It can take a long time if you have no prior experience and have got yourself a working line dog with lots of energy, brains and prey drive - but you owe it to the dog to keep on trying.

schloss · 26/10/2024 22:22

I tend to subscribe to the copying method when walking my dogs - they are predominantly of the lead and recall when I need them to return. In fact they constantly check in with me without me recalling them, but back to the copying method - if I see someone coming towards me and their dog is on a lead, I put mine back on a lead. Also vice versa if they leave theirs off, so do I.

Most of the time everything is good with the on lead dogs walking nicely past eachother.

Something as sensible as that can minimise issues happening.

Dogs need to have free running for their mental and physical health.

Like many threads on MN, too many people think regulations and banning things is the only option - why should many well trained dogs be banned from off lead walks because of a few untrained dogs?

The other issue (whilst I have my soapbox out!) is the very simple comment many make - if your dog doesn't recall it shouldn't be off the lead. Two points really, at somepoint the vast amount of training has to be tested which means the dog is off the lead totally - no long line, or even a "short" long line. For the high prey drive breeds, you only really know how bombproof your recall is is at this point. Can it go wrong sometimes - yes it does!

Secondly those people who say it probably do not understand or can be bothered to understand the effort needed for recall training. It is very easy to comment teach it to recall, when they have no idea what is involved.

My dread with some of my dogs is meeting a bitch in season, or rather a bitch even quite a distance away. With the young dogs, you never know if this is the ultimate test of recall training - you almost cannot train for it, the only time you know is when it happens. I do not mind saying I have had 100% success and also 100% failures. Luckily I can read my dogs and if they start air or ground scenting in a very busy way, it crosses my mind it may be a bitch they are interested in. I tend to put them on the lead just in case - that doesn't stop many visitors to a busy tourist area walking a full in season bitch off lead "as she came in season at the same time as we are on holiday!"

stayathomer · 26/10/2024 23:29

EdithStourton

As for I think people need to let go of the idea that all dogs need to be let off leads in publicI 100% disagree. Most of us don't have an acre of land, and many breeds need a lot of free running for fulfilment and sanity, and virtually all dogs benefit from it.

no most people don’t have an acre and growing up we didn’t but got by fine with our dog on the lead all the time. Most parks in Ireland don’t actually allow dogs off leads!
yes-sorry my post was muddled, I was just saying most dogs aren’t trained to the degree op seems to assume they should be and most of the ones that are that well trained are highly reactive and have owners that are stressed/ very uptight. I was rambling really, sorry!

PyreneanAubrie · 27/10/2024 06:59

Whilst I fully respect that the OP created this thread for discourse on aggression in retriever breeds, she cannot continue to make sweeping generalisations about clueless owners not training their dogs and expect the thread not to deviate.

Not all dogs can be safely walked off the lead and this is not always entirely down to novice owners who can't be bothered to train their pets. I make no apology for pointing this out.

I have a dog breed from an ancient and primitive group of dogs - the Livestock Protection Dogs. They are, from necessity, independent minded, bred to largely work off their own initiative and their recall is notoriously shaky at best.

Of my 9 LGD over the last 47 years, I have only had one that had 100% reliable recall. That really had little to do with training and was almost entirely down to her individual temperament. She was from working bloodlines, both her parents were French imports and she had no interest in people. She was aloof to the point of rudeness, closely bonded to both of us (self and partner) and she never strayed more than a few metres from us on a walk.

None of my others has had a totally reliable recall. All but two of the 8 Pyreneans were from European bloodlines with some working strains. Three of my four males could be allowed off the lead in certain places, if it was quiet with no people around, but two of the four bitches could never, ever be trusted off the lead. It was not from lack of training but entirely temperament based.

There will be exceptions, I have no doubt that there are people with very well-trained LGD, but by and large it is rarely safe to allow this type of dog off the lead in a public place in most areas of the UK. This is not for reasons of aggression but down to the way their brains work; if they see a speck in the far off distance they are duty bound to go and investigate in case it could pose a threat to the flock, which, obviously, with a pet LGD, is its human family. Their perceived need to protect you will almost always override their willingness to respond to your commands and you have to remember that they mostly work alone when guarding. They will roam for miles and it is just not safe in the urban UK. So yes, you can train them - to a point - but there is always an element of risk in allowing a LGD off the lead; the fear of them getting onto roads and the awareness that dogs of this size and strength, no matter how calm their temperament, will be seen as a threat by many people and most smaller dogs. This is what makes them unsuitable as urban/suburban pets for the "average" family, they need dedicated owners with some understanding of LGD working traits and heritage.

So I have to disagree with @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone because it isn't always about poor training or an off leash dog "living the life it deserves". Not everything is that cut and dried. Sometimes the life they deserve is to be protected from danger. There are many reasons for a dog not being well-trained in the conventional sense and it isn't always about clueless owners.

I agree with @stayathomer that not all dogs need to be off the lead in public. We have a secure double fence around our garden and we also lead walk for miles on footpaths and bridleways. Our dogs are perfectly happy.

I will tell @EdithStourton and @schloss that I feel there is a difference between training and teaching. I have never crated my pups, I gently teach them from 8/9/10 weeks what is "acceptable" behaviour in the home and they learn adult behaviour very early. I never have resource guarding, I used to feed three adult PMD together in my kitchen. We work on mutual respect and trust - because, with a dog that weighs more than you do, there is no point in trying to push them around. They are well-socialised with people and dogs, anybody that comes into our home will be welcomed. They love children, are 100% trustworthy with my cats and around livestock (always, of course, on the lead around livestock) because they have a very low prey drive. At home they are calm and quiet. We like to try to understand how their minds work, we can't expect them to learn in the same way that a hound, terrier or gundog will because they aren't able to. But they are highly intelligent and very fascinating to spend time with. We have never bred a litter and have only occasionally shown, but we have 100% commitment to the physical and psychological well-being of our dogs.

So, I happily admit that I may be a clueless owner in that I don't have well-trained dogs in the conventional sense, with a reliable down, stay and recall etc. However, I can honestly say we have never had any issues with aggression, problem barking or destructive boredom. We like our dogs to be free-spirited and independent minded because the breed standard calls for "quietly confident". We absolutely do not treat them like babies; that is something I loathe about modern dog ownership. But we do allow them to retain the inherited traits of their breed/group without trying to train it out of them. And before someone leaps on me, no it is not "dangerous" to do that. The dam, older sister and now brother of our 7 month old puppy are actually working dogs on farms. Allowing a LGD to be a LGD is no different from allowing a gundog to work as a gundog. All you do is channel their inherited behaviour in the right way.

I apologise for the off-topic essay but I think it important to put forward the point of view of those of us who do not let our dogs off the lead for reasons other than the fact that we simply "cannot be bothered" to train them. I am sure people will disagree - the OP for one. But a LGD should not have the behavioural characteristics of a gundog and I fully stand by my observations here.