Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

@schloss I'm with you on not being keen on bans.

A large part of the issue lies in public education. When I was a kid it was okay to leave dog shit on the pavements, and now it isn't. It was okay to buy a puppy in a pet shop and now you can't. It should be similarly Right Out to buy one from puppy farmers. The info on how to avoid doing so is out there, but people are just not aware enough of the issue. Likewise awareness of health issues.

Yes you are right, the info is there if people choose to find it but I do believe that the echo chambers of social media are far more powerful in pushing the pedigree dogs are bad narrative. In addition for many people, pedigrees or cross breeds, the "must have it now" mentality has fuelled the change of behaviour amoungst prospective owners - they must have it now. Covid was the classic example of how everyone wanted a puppy straight away.

So all the online sites with "pups for sale now" just increased, this in turn meant more people started to breed. Pandoras box has been well and truly opened.

@EdithStourton @schloss

I'm not a breeder and am not clued up on this but what does 0.6% COI mean please?

It is basically breeding from related dogs - so a COI of 0% would mean there is no relationships at all, the higher it goes the more relations there are. COI stands for Co-efficient of inbreeding.

Inbreeding would have a high COI as is not something many breeders do (despite what many say), for example a mother to son mating, breeders will line breed, where there is some commonality in the pedigrees. For me I will line breed on, for example, the dam's side but have a total outcross in the stud dog.

There are COI calculators on the Kennel Club website and they probably have a better description than I have given!

So for your breed in the UK, I would expect there is not a huge genepool, so breeders will likely do similar to I have done, line breed with outcrosses.

WIth the larger breeds it is easier to keep the COI very low.

COI, imo, is just one of the factors I use when looking at breeding, it goes alongside health test results and disposition etc. I can be honest and say I would except a slightly higher COI with low HD scores, 0 ED and clear eye tests than a COI of 0% and bad health test results.

To enlarge on what @schloss said, if you were to breed full siblings, the puppies would have a COI os 25%; the offspring of first cousins would have a COI of 6.25% (approx).

The issue with dogs is that often the relatedness is more complex - the dam and sire might be cousins, but also share another grandparent, who is related to two of the other three grandparents. It gets very messy very quickly. You can end up with a situation where one dog appears several times in a five-generation pedigree (as, say, two of the great-great-grandfathers and two of the great-grandfathers) and another crops up a couple of times. And then some breeders act all surprised when a new genetic illness is recognised in the breed. Vizsla inflammatory polymyopathy is a case in point. I've looked at some of the pedigrees on the website and they make my head hurt.

I can remember looking for a breeder/puppy and just not going any further when the litter had a COI of 18%.

Unfortunately this sort of thing tars all breeders with the same brush, which isn't fair. My older dog's breeder was very pleased to show me the pedigrees that went into the mating, and the variety of dogs ('French import, yeah... and this one, German').

I've never bred a litter, but if I ever did, I would be looking at temperament, health, sound conformation (which connects to health) and working ability. Good breed type? Definitely. Show ring niceties like the current trendy ear-set or head shape? Not interested.

Thanks @schloss @EdithStourton

The average in our breed is actually 3% so fairly low. None of our PMD have been inbred/line bred - when we got the first two the UK gene pool was large although it isn't now. All our subsequent dogs have had at least one imported parent.

The reason I asked about 0.6% is that when I had used the calculator, that is what it gave for our current bitch. I didn't check this figure before we got her because I wasn't aware of this facility being available on the KC website, but we had seen the full pedigree of sire and dam so we knew what the breeding was. We did get hip and elbow scores (which were all low) before viewing the litter though, that is always a big priority for us.

(Sorry for sounding lie an imbecile; I did know a lot of this stuff years ago because we had the Malcolm B Willis and Ray Coppinger books but the menopause seems to have rotted my brain 🙄)

@EdithStourton Thank you for the added info.

Sometimes it is "easy" to see where problems occur in a pedigree, other times more difficult and in fact the lower COI can mask an issue for a longer length of time.

I agree about all the different parts which make up a good mating, COI being only one part. I also look at colour genetics.

I think with head shapes and ear-sets you talk about, if incorrect as to the standard, sometimes it is not bred for, rather a particular dog with the problem just keeps on winning, therefore people think it is correct. It is infuriating and can change a breed very quickly. It is easy to mess a breed up, it takes far longer to fix.

You are not an imbecile at all - I would far prefer someone to ask. None of us know everything and by asking others it is how we learn - well that is what I think!

Inbreeding and linebreeding are different concepts, although one can fade into the other so you have to be very careful. Sadly someone's idea of linebreeding can be anothers inbreeding.

With breeds, such as yours, and where I have imported it can be a leap of faith as to what will be produced. You can do every bit of planning, researcing, health testing, COI planning etc etc and the mating just not produce what you expect, it is the joys of nature!

@schloss
Thank you.

Yes, there is indeed a fine line between line breeding and in breeding; my parents had a "line bred" Anatolian in the 80's that was actually half-brother to half-sister 😒

I hear you about the "leap of faith" matings, we did have one pup that could be considered that way but overall the European bloodlines have worked out well for us. Our first two PMD were very much show type dogs from British bloodlines, the rest have been mixed continental lines but predominantly French. Our previous male was French/Belgian and was the best dog we've had for type.

This is why I find the talk about the working gundogs compared to the show type so interesting. It is less known in our breed but nonetheless does exist.

We definitely have a preferred look - we like a tall, leggy, athletic dog that could be referred to as French type. In the 80's/90's the UK Pyreneans tended more towards a heavier boned dog with a deep stop a bit like a Newfie (the look is now similar in the US) whereas the French dogs had more height and a finer head. The good thing about the decrease in UK registrations now is that the very heavy boned dogs seem to be a lot less prevalent and there are more dogs of good European type. Hips are generally better and the breed has been going in the right direction in the last few years. Temperaments, fortunately, have always been good...

@PyreneanAubrie (Sorry for sounding lie an imbecile; I did know a lot of this stuff years ago because we had the Malcolm B Willis and Ray Coppinger books but the menopause seems to have rotted my brain 🙄)
Oh, no worries!
I'm no better. I used to have a belter of a short term memory (I'd learn my French vocab during the last 5-10 minutes the bus to school, and then get 9 or 10/10 a few hours later). Now, not so much.

@schloss With breeds, such as yours, and where I have imported it can be a leap of faith as to what will be produced. You can do every bit of planning, researcing, health testing, COI planning etc etc and the mating just not produce what you expect, it is the joys of nature!
The breeder os one of my dogs talked to me about how a slightly higher COI gives more consistency in a litter. She then bred a litter with a COI just above 5%, and got the most inconsistent selection of puppies, from a couple of incredible hulks to a couple of whippety little things, with more breed-average types in between.

We had labs then there was a huge increase in hip issues in working dogs so our last lab was in 1997. We bought an ESS after that and a sprocker. Finally after 25 years we bought a lab puppy. The hip issue had been addressed but it took a number of years. Our new lab is definitely American line, different in looks and size. Still the lovely temperament but destructive nature continues. 🙈🤭

@EdithStourton "The breeder os one of my dogs talked to me about how a slightly higher COI gives more consistency in a litter. She then bred a litter with a COI just above 5%, and got the most inconsistent selection of puppies, from a couple of incredible hulks to a couple of whippety little things, with more breed-average types in between"

Everything can look perfect on paper but just doesn't work. If it was easy every litter would be near perfect, but nature never works like that.

I am not so sure if it is the higher COI, I think it is the combination of everything we have previously mentioned, the COI being only one factor. COI v health test results, I will always place the health results over a 0% COI. Basically I look at COI as a basis of probability - what is the probability of X happening if I do Y.

COI is at its most important imo when you are sure a breed has an health issue which is proven from genetics.