Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone Yes, suckles, that’s the word to describe it.

Regarding the lab, Was he an over-enthusiastic lab who wanted to say ‘hello’, or was it an aggressive leap?

@PyreneanAubrie Seconded!

@PyreneanAubrie thirded!

Full on aggression is worrying irrespective of breed, it certainly sounds as though you and your husband know the difference and psychology of canine behaviour as to what constitues proper aggression.

I have a youngster here who did launch himself at other dogs, in a I want to get to them to play sort of way - not acceptable to me at all - it was sorted very quickly, but (he only did it a couple of times) I can see how other could perceive (not you) as an aggressive dog.

Dogs biting through fear, in a veterinary situation for example, is not great but slighty more understandable, dogs biting in any situation without any warning is not good at all.

As has been said on this thread, many owners do not know how to train or in fact raise a dog - they do not understand how a dog ticks, they try to give it human qualities, they think a dog thinks as humans do and it is so easy for behaviour to be "rewarded" without the owner realising. It is far quicker for a dog to learn a behaviour than it is to stop them doing it.

My Pyries have always done this, they've never been aggressive in the least. The puppy (7 months) likes to hold my hand a lot but it's not grabby, she doesn't hurt me. She always does it in the mornings when she's sleepy and it's like a greeting - she kind of gently sucks my fingers. They also sometimes nibble me as if they're grooming me. I just think it's part of the bond.

Mine do similar, yes when they are young predominantly, and when they are tired.

I'm now realising how lucky I have been. I could say I've been naive (nay, stupid) because I do almost no training, but, 8 dogs in, I've genuinely never had any issues with aggression/posturing or problem behaviour.

I admit I do not know how to train a dog but I do know how to raise my own dog, if that makes sense. I don't give them human qualities but I do try to get inside the LGD mind.

I probably could do a lot more as regards training, because they are highly intelligent dogs, but they're also very independent minded, and, in many ways, I like that.

Flattering (and thank you), but let's not overstate my abilities...

6 or 7 years ago I was a dog owner struggling with an HPR who was too much dog for us, so I really sympathise with people who are in over their heads. Since then I have brought two HPRs to a decent level of training, with the help of a great club, a gamekeeper and 1:1s with a gundog trainer. I now sometimes get asked for advice (when my two are behaving themselves 😂) and almost all of my replies are, 'I can recommend a trainer/club...'

What I do know how to do is to keep dogs engaged and busy on an ordinary walk, with half an eye on me all the time in case I do something unexpected or interesting. Helps no end with keeping a naturally wide-ranging and exploratory breed within range.

@EdithStourton I think it's more about different perspectives. I see you regularly on the different threads and your point of view is always relevant. Same with the OP and one or two other dog regulars. You all have different levels of experience but still bring something valid and constructive to the table.

@Bupster I started with 'find it' for hunting for food near me when she was tiny and moved it on to balls and small dummies/other artefacts of value. I can use the same command for finding food and/or dummies etc and the dummy is more exciting than food – for her, at least. Our quartering – the zig-zag hunting pattern – is a work in progress but what she is plainly excellent at is finding things and it works her brain regardless. For the general finding of balls and dummies I used to go into the garden and chuck a load around, sit her up, and say 'go find', and wait as she worked out where five/six things were. She never knew how many she was finding, but every time she brought one back I'd give her a hand signal and say 'go find', and she'd keep bringing them in. I used 'where's your ball' too in the early days, and as others have above, also named some of her toys, so now I can say 'where's froggy' and she'll go and find froggy.

I think I probably started on hard level asking her to do blinds as a tiny puppy but it's paid off as when I ask her to 'find' she trusts me that there's something there if I give her a rough direction.

If it was me with B-dog (and probably others will have other views) I'd start in the garden just chucking stuff around and giving him no excuse but to find it – you can help him by getting down low and almost but not quite showing him where it is, and then mad praise when he finds it. Then just ramp it up to doing it out and about off lead (or on long line) where it's not too over-stimulating: chuck a ball/puppy dummy behind/to the side of you a few metres when he's not looking, and then ask him again to find it, and praise again when he does. When he's not looking chuck the next one, and repeat.

On a related note, what I find fascinating is that it doesn't necessarily come naturally to all of them – it depends on their own level of drive. My friend's cocker is the same age as mine and will not bother to look for a ball or anything else ever. You ask her to find a ball in cover and she just stands there and looks at you – not fussed. My dog is right in there, keen as anything. Is it because I've taught her to do that or is it because that's who she is? Probably both. Conversely I have another friend with a young springer who is 1,000pc more drivey than my dog and in turn she's much more impressive to watch. I'm happy with my mid-level drive but it's so interesting how both their lines and their personalities dictate how they see and experience the world.

Agreed – as we've said before, it's so interesting learning about how different types of working dogs (as that's all I'm frankly interested in) work. HPRs are so different to spaniels, and LGDs are on a whole other planet, but they're all still working dogs. I lurked on The Doghouse for so long but I'm glad I stopped lurking as I've learnt so much.

Likewise, I was a long term lurker. It's only here, now, that I'm learning how little I actually know about other types (well breeds) of dog and it's really giving me a new perspective. It's all fascinating. I'm also, happily, realising how well suited I am to my breed, which is a really nice thing 😊

My point of view isn't always popular, but ultimately I think we're all here because we love our dogs and want the best for them. What we argue about is what counts as 'best' and how we aim to get there.

I do think very hard about how I train my dogs, who are wildly different in personality despite having very similar drives and desires. I read a lot, listen to a lot of podcasts, follow a number of trainers and ethologists on FB, and always try to absorb what I'm told at training (I think for every 10 bits of information, I probably retain one or two).

ultimately I think we're all here because we love our dogs and want the best for them. What we argue about is what counts as 'best' and how we aim to get there.

I totally agree with this. Everyone is coming at this from their own view and experience, but ultimately I think we all have the same goal.*

@EdithStourton are there any ethologists you'd recommend?

Yes, I'm interested too @Bupster and @EdithStourton

I’m curious is your experience with working spaniels or shows? I have a show and he’s placid, calm and loving but very protective of us his family. Eg barks at the door /any noises outside. Where as my brothers working spaniels are nutty as hell!! I think a Lot of working spaniels don’t get the exercise they need, in turn the cockapoos from working spaniel lines inherit this craziness!

So I own a show spaniel (and have owned more than one historically). With fostering, it's been both! When I was a vet, predominantly working strain and, tbh, usually little black ones that had issues...

I totally agree with you about spaniels and exercise.

My spaniel is a working show cross with a bit more working than show in his character. He needs lots of off-lead exercise - at least an hour and a half - with long walks through dense and open woodland and open parkland. I could never have him off lead near any livestock though. He has a really long range so I need to dd my research before letting him off lead. Luckily we have some brilliant huge parks nearby. He spends ages using his nose in manic figures of eight around trees and is crazy to chase squirrels. He caught one only once and instantly dropped it, shocked, when it squealed. He’s a flusher rather than a hunter. No interest in chasing balls. Very treat driven which makes recall excellent.

Then we do games later in the day - scent work, hide and seek etc. If he gets enough stimulation, he’s a fab boy. He is a bit barky and over excited when visitors come but is extremely well trained (not by me initially - I got him when he was about 18 months and I was then trained to work with him). He never jumps up on people and has shown no sign of aggression other than space resource guarding (snapping) in the early days, which we manage carefully and don’t see any more. He’s fantastically well behaved when out in cafes, friend’s houses, trains, buses etc and is gentle with kids. (Always supervised as we don’t have any living with us) He loves his people madly and that includes his dog mates. I’ve lost multiple kilos since getting him. He’s so good for me. But not a dog for anyone without plenty of time for him.

Interesting, my working cocker bombs about while out but is totally chilled at home. Doesn’t bark either. Very occasionally you’ll get a single wood if we’ve taken too long to feed him or he does join in and howl if a siren goes by, but very rarely. He does get 3 off lead walks a day adding up to 2-2.5 hours, plus training at home.

@Bupster and @PyreneanAubrie I follow the Ethology Institute (which is headed by Roger Abrantes) and Roberto Barata, both on FB.

I have a couple of books by Abrantes and am toying with buying Barata's.

We have flatties and have had one (of the 5 we've had) who is a bit fear aggressive under certain circumstances, specifically when being walked on lead, near our house, when barked at or approached suddenly by another dog, particularly if the dog is off-lead. Away from the house and/or off-lead he's absolutely fine. He is a lockdown puppy (we got him about two weeks before lockdowns started) so didn't get the same kinds of socialisation as our other dogs have had, which I'm sure made a difference. That said, my feeling is that he has a less steady, more anxious disposition than any of the others and it's just fundamentally his nature. He's also the only one we've had who finds the sound of fireworks frightening - He's barking at some right now and the other flatcoat is looking at him like, WTF?

Our first was the smartest dog I've ever met and he was fantastic, but an absolute nightmare. Getting him to use his brain for good instead of evil was a lifelong challenge. He was the only one from real working lines - learned our lesson and the rest have all been more showing/pet lines (but still need loads of stimulation, exercise and brain games). The other ones have all been daft with brains the size of a pea. In my experience, they also all have an obsession, whether it be finding a place to swim, retrieving, or a special person, they will have one interest that overrides everything else (other than food - they all love their food).

I do think flatcoat breeders tend to be extremely thorough in vetting prospective owners. I feel like it's almost as easy to adopt a child as get approved for a flattie, so that might account for some of what you're seeing.

They don't live long enough, but we've never yet lost one under 11 (knock on wood) and they've all been extremely active and healthy right up to the end.

Same, @TeenLifeMum – our (young) WCS is super chilled at home because one of the first things I taught was a settle. She woofs to go to the loo and sometimes during supper if she's still hungry but that's it. Doesn't jump up, gorgeous cuddler, follows me everywhere unless told otherwise. Today she's had two hours exercise plus a short lunchtime training session in the garden, and that's plenty, she'll sleep all evening now. People constantly say to me 'oh she's a handful isn't she!!!' as if she goes around in flushing bird mode 24/7, and for some silly reason it annoys me.

I often see on mn that dogs should be walked on leads - cockers would go nuts without an off lead walk!

@ddd4 You have done really well getting FCR to 11 - long may it continue.