Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

@schloss
Yes you are right and apologies for misunderstanding.
No problem - I wasn't clear,

The gait desired in the breed I have is leading to a straight shoulder, not great for a wide-running dog.

And yes, we are diverging... I'll get my coat!

Sometimes going off-topic a little actually makes for a more interesting thread. I'm soaking up your comments since I'm a LGD person and know little of gundogs. I'm learning a great deal just from hanging out in The Doghouse.

@EdithStourton "And yes, we are diverging" - much like some breeds!😁

All the sporting groups are really my speciality so it is nice to hear more about the other groups and indivdual breeds too.

Our 3 year old lab is the most gentlest dog I've come across.
She is so gentle with young nieces, they love playing with her.
She's never once even barked at another dog when out. Small dogs bark at her a lot. A few have tried to attack her and she just stands and stares at them. I wish she would bark back, defend herself but she doesn't.

We see a fair few labs on our walks and I must say we haven't meet one aggressive lab. The goldens we've come across all seem ok too, just sometimes a bit nuts

Agree I think it starts with the breeder personally it's like any animal or human give them the best start in life and guidance it's usually all good. Shihtzu has a reputation for being snappy pampered etc that's because their owners overbear them and coddle a dog needs a dogs life, a leader you and the right nutritional diet and lots of exercise and play. My 8 years shihtzu does 3 walks per day and wees as well as playtime twice a day. We had a baby when he was 5 he still got all of that because he deserves me time. I've got a dog walker from the start too for my office days so it gives him a break and fun. People buy cute pups and think it's easy it's raising a child basically and the toddler years are tough!. Although I'm sad to say I'd never go near an XL they just scare me I guess because there's a man near me who was killed by his own and a lot have been according to reports and I just feel they are bred for fighting really even with the right owner it seems they flick like a switch. My dog walker trainer has GSD I was never keen because my neighbour had one and it was a bit nasty but I love hers so I do think it's about ownership and training.

I've got a retriever. She's the best dog. Well behaved. Well trained. Currently asleep next to the cat.

Mine is intelligent since she can count, knows directions, knows letters and understands hand signals..

I’ve got two black labs, both really chilled out but a bit silly, which we love as we can do daft stuff with them. I do have a succession strategy though where each young dog has a chilled out mentor dog a few years older, so they know what they’re aiming for. And we’re relaxed with them. I do think many problems now are stemming from absolutely neurotic and anxious owners, which the dogs are picking up on.

Have never had a problem with any of our black labs, but none are working type, because I’m not daft enough to think our lifestyle fits in with one.

Labs do bite people, because folk get them and think they oh yeah they are fine with kids etc so take less care. They don't hit the headlines as possibly as this article says they nip rather than give a full mauling like other dogs we could name. People have no sense, present company excluded.

Most people (as article says) are bitten by a known dog, and small children get bitten because they don't understand that pulling a dogs tail or taking its bone may result in an unhappy ending.

www.dogster.com/statistics/dog-bite-statistics-uk

'Surprisingly, the Labrador is the dog breed that is most likely to bite.
(Hanne Grice)

In some ways, it is surprising to learn that the Labrador is the breed with the highest incidents of dog bites. But the Labrador is the most popular breed and it is also widely considered a good all-round dog breed that makes a good family pet. Also, while it might be inclined to nip, the Labrador is less likely to cause serious injuries or fatalities.'

I haven't seen more Goldies or labs here in the Northern Hills.

I have had golden retrievers all my life - my aunt and uncle are breeders. So I am totally biased but I actually think they are a very easy dog and an excellent family pet. Our dogs have all been good natured, gentle, intelligent, biddable (in that they genuinely love to learn and please their owner rather than being submissive) and are the right energy level for me - can be hyped up but also easily settle down and curl up in a corner. I'm always surprised how awful the puppy stage seems for people who have other breeds.

Having said that, we have always had well bred dogs (both in terms of genetics and start in life) and taken the time to train them. I guess it's likely that, like with many other breeds, there has been a rise in irresponsible breeders since the COVID puppy boom. And, of course, you get out what you put in with any puppy.

I also think that their friendly faces and reputation as softies means that people often don't treat them with the level of respect/caution that IMO you should treat any strange dog with.

@volcanovillain would you mind pm’ing me your aunt and uncle’s names or link? No problem is you don’t feel comfortable. Thanks.

I've really enjoyed it too. I know next to nothing about LDGs, other than having seen a few on various European mountains and briefly following the blog of someone who had a couple to look after her stock in coyote country.

@bozzabollix
I do think many problems now are stemming from absolutely neurotic and anxious owners, which the dogs are picking up on.
I'm inclined to agree. There is someone I see out dog walking who is incredibly anxious, and who has a rescue dog. She (the owner) completely over-reacts to minor situations, and blames other dogs for upsetting her dog even if her dog started it. I'm watching that one with a mix of interest and worry.

I'm one of those idiot novice owners that got a working gundog puppy - half (fox red working) Lab and half WCS. Just about as soon as I put the deposit down I realised that I might be taking on more than I could cope with and started reading everything I could about puppies, training, and even dog cognition. I think I read myself into an anxious corner for a while, so in terms of training we've focused on recall, and I've spent a lot of time taking him out for long sniffy walks, and socialising him with dogs and people.

He's an absolute love at six months - yes, he jumps up a bit, and pulls on the lead, but he does (atm) recall to his name and to whistle even around distractions, he is wonderful with kids and people, and has pretty good manners around other dogs for a puppy. He's generally much calmer than the spaniels we know, though you can see when his half-a-spaniel brain kicks in.

I'm actually not posting to say look how well I've done because I'm still clear that I was an idiot - I've been very lucky with his character and the fact I have the time to spend with him, and the mental energy to read everything in sight. I know two of his litter mates and one is now going to a behaviourist for aggression, resource-guarding, growling at the kids, etc.

I'm also thinking that there are a lot of posters here with gundog experience - if anyone has any advice in terms of what I should do next in terms of training, I'd be grateful - e.g. what sort of things does gundog training involve? I don't want to hijack the thread - but I'm curious about the kinds of things I should be doing to make sure my idiotic choices don't mean my dog becomes one of the problem retrievers that @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone warns of.

I think you deserve a huge pat on the back, you are not an idiot - you very quickly realised you needed info and advice. You found it and used it - well done.

As to gundog training, the question is are you meaning training for your dog to be a gundog, or training to keep a gundog happy?

If the former then join a gundog training club - one which is very welcoming to beginners and more interested in training and gundog working tests than field trials.

If the latter - gundogs want to hunt and retrieve main, so hide things when in your garden, at home, out for walks. You can use canvas gundog dummies if you want. Firstly show the dog where you are "hiding" it and tell them to seek or find. Once they have it call them back to you. So this helps with recall as well as used their nose.

If you are not planning on working your dog as a gundog, it is not so important if they play with the dummy, but the main thing is you want the dog to come back to you and release the dummy to you. You progress by both telling your dog to "wait" whilst you go and "hide" the dummy, then send him to retrieve and return to you.

The ultimate is a blind retrieve where you have hidden the dummy without the dog seeing where - it is totally wonderful seeing a dog using their nose and ability to find a dummy.

You can also tell your dog to wait, throw the dummy and then get them to retrieve it.

Early on, a long line is useful as you can direct them back into you.

The gundog breeds are all about using their instints for good, otherwise for some of them they will go off and find ways of using their instincts - which is where prey drive and chasing things happen.

They are generally very intelligent dogs, especially when working out how to get their own way, I think they actually plan. I have seen the cogs working in our boys brain as he contemplates something before.
I think that because they are also a bit daft and silly people underestimate them, they go from majestic to derpy in an instant.
Basically people underestimate both their brains and their brawn, which can lead to issues

@Bupster schloss has given great advice!

Given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t worry too much! The bigger issue is people not realising. Too often before I changed careers I met people with dogs they didn’t stimulate or exercise and the lack of ‘stimulation’ or neglect (which it was in my view) led to really bad behaviours. We see it a lot on mumsnet - posters recommending a Goldie or Lab to someone who can only walk it for an hour a day or doesn’t WFH often or has lots of young kids etc. Training a dog well is hard but training a dog with any or all of the above life complications is impossible tbh.

With my two (a cocker and a golden), I do an awful lot of high level training with them - hand signals, left/right, flying down, teaching them names of toys etc. my big thing is actually doing it when the Golden is having a manic moment and teaching him that even when he’s completely bonkers (I.e zoomies) he needs to respond to me. But you can only do that once you’ve worked on the v. Basics as you need to do it carefully to ensure they don’t start to not listen to you.

@Bupster - generally they want a job, but that job doesn't necessarily have to be gundog work. Scentwork, hoopers, mantrailing, agility etc. are all good for working brains. Your pup is too young for agility but the rest can be started now if they are of interest.

@Bupster what @schloss has said.

Group lessons are very helpful for teaching your dog to deal with distractions, and going to a few sessions (either group or 1:1 or in a club) should be helpful for new ideas. Personally I'm all in favour of pet-owners being welcomed at gundog training clubs - that was how I started. It's good for the owners and for the dogs.

As your dogs learns what to do, you can incorporate a lot on an ordinary walk - you can drop a ball or dummy when the dog isn't looking and send it back to search for it, get your dog to hop up onto a tree stump or fallen log, do off-lead heel past distractions like football matches, sit-stay the dog while you tie a shoelace or backtrack 25 yards to ditch a poo bag in the bin, do random stops and recalls (the stop at distance is incredibly useful). I do all this when I walk my two, as well as having regular training sessions still. It all helps to build a wonderful bond with your dog, and realising what they can do is massively eye-opening. They're happy, you're happy, walks are fun.

It can be addictive though - be warned!

"It can be addictive though - be warned!" @EdithStourton: "teaching them names of toys" @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone

I am so pleased I am not the only one to name toys and tell the dogs to go and find NNNN! Also all the training whilst out walking, it is so much more fun for me and the dogs than in a structured training classand pays dividends (eventually - looking at my currenty youngster!).

I also teach my dogs to put their toys away into the toy basket before bed - it is lovely to see them do it and the searching for "donkey" because he is hidden!

@Bupster I know enough about your lovely dog to know how well he’s done and how well you’ve done and you’re doing a super job. He’s wonderful. I was a silly novice getting a gundog puppy too last year but we work really hard together and it pays off. She super impressed me this morning on our walk across the stubble when someone important phoned and kept me on the phone for 40 minutes, and she checked in constantly, listened to my subtle signals while I was necessarily talking to someone else, and watched my hands for direction. Didn’t bog off once, even though the hedge was partridge heaven. Just 10/10.

I think I put a load of stuff on the previous puppy thread about what you can do with him if you want to – but it depends on what you want him to be able to do. Do you want him working with you and hunting, or do you want him to be steady? I started with sit stays and finding balls and dummies in the garden, and waiting to be released to retrieve, but the best thing I've taught her is 'go back' which at home means 'go back and get the thing you dropped', and in a field means 'go and get that bird/dummy that's behind you'. It's amazing when they get it, so satisfying and I agree with everyone above that it's incredibly addictive!

I am a nutcase spaniel owner who wants a good, bold picker-upper who can find anything but also a steady dog who will stop dead when asked, and after flushing a bird, sit up 200 metres from me without budging, hunt nicely with me, and potentially be able to sit on the peg all day – which she might do a bit when she grows up more. So my ambitions are wide and work adjacent but they’re also mostly for fun, for her enjoyment (and mine) and for the enrichment of her lovely life.

Regarding labs and biting , my lab likes to ‘mouth’, and he finds it reassuring to hold your hand in his mouth. He doesn’t bite it (ie clamp down his jaws), but just holds it gently. Could some biting be attributed to this?

Not from my perspective! My Goldie ‘suckles’ (holds in his mouth then licks with his tongue).

But I’m thinking of full aggression - attacking, lunging at other dogs across the street. My DP treated a lab yesterday that went for him the second he walked into the room - launched off the table.

@brushingboots you are very lovely, as ever. I think I need to teach him exactly the things you mention - he's not bad with the sit stays, but I wouldn't know where to start with finding balls and dummies; do you use a different command to e.g. finding food?

Ah, maybe there should be a specific training thread? I (with the untrainable LGD) would love to listen in and learn from the likes of @schloss and @EdithStourton plus the OP. I'm sure other knowledgeable persons would happen along and chip in also.