Retrievers: the new Cockerpoo/Cocker Spaniel?

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

I’ve recently noticed a really high increase in the number of aggressive and badly trained retrievers or those with lots of behavioural issues. A few years ago (pre covid and immediately post-Covid) it seemed to be cockerpoos and cocker spaniels.

I foster and in the last year I’ve had two retriever breeds with serious issues - before this, only had one over a six year period, but lots of cockerpoos. I do a lot (3-4) of holidays in the UK and go somewhere new every time. So even though I originally thought ‘oh it’s just tossers getting dogs they’re ill equipped to own where I live,’ it’s apparently not. I’m just wondering if anyone else has noticed it? And if so, what you think the issue is?

Personally, I think they’re ’family friendly’ breeds being bought by the wrong people who don’t adequately exercise, train or socialise their dogs. So is it that?
Poor breeding because of increased breeders for these breeds because of the surge in popularity? Both?

Around me, people have mostly moved on from cockers/poos - I think given the increase in known issues - I see far more young retrievers these days than I do cockerpoos. But I’m really interested to know others views on this are?

Obviously there are other breeds with serious aggression issues or likely behavioural issues but I’ve just never met as many aggressive or problemed retrievers as I have recently…

More than happy to be told it’s just me and I have bad luck (I do walk a lot so there’s a high chance it’s that) but it just feels like it’s gone past the point of bad luck!

I spout this ad nauseam on every Doghouse thread! It's about choosing the right dog to fit your lifestyle, and that, to a large extent, is what people get wrong when they fall for the cute factor on social media.

I get that but maybe some of those people who can’t control their dogs or have them going slowly mad because they want to be running outside 8 hours a day might be better off with a low energy dog.

Yes, I totally agree that people should get dogs to fit their lifestyles, but a lot of dogs, regardless of breed, to through phases where they don't listen, or where they jump up, or where they're just a right pain in the arse.

Unless you always go for a fully trained rescue, it's kind of unavoidable, at least for a few months while they grow up and settle down.

I’d love to know why guide dogs and hearing dogs use labs but not retrievers? Very similar in size and I can understand why guide dogs need to be solid and substantial. What is it about labs that make them good assistance dogs over other large breeds?

(Although Hearing dogs who don’t need to be so physically substantial are also drawn from spaniels, cockerpoos and poodles.)

I was bitten by a golden retriever as a child , it was destroyed, but they determined that it had health issues that caused it to attack.

Some of them are huge dogs , very strong too. Because they don't look ' vicious ' people don't treat them with the same caution as they'd give to a more scary breed.

I totally agree.

You can't expect a puppy or adolescent to behave like an adult dog because it won't. There's no point complaining about normal puppy behaviour (biting, jumping up, pulling etc) but people have no patience.

But I think the lifestyle thing is a bigger worry. You've only got to look at the 'I'm Thinking of Getting a Puppy' threads on MN to see that no matter what breed someone wants, everyone always starts jumping up and down screaming "get a X, Y or Z breed, we have one and he's amazing!!!" This is part of the danger of social media or following trends/copying a friend. Your lifestyle is not the same as someone else's but first time owners often think a dog is a dog is a dog.... because "It's just a puppy" (hmmmm 🤔that sounds familiar from another thread...🙄)

I can honestly say that in 47 years in the same breed I have never recommended someone get one, and if people do think they want one I generally try to put them off by emphasising the negatives... Because it's a big commitment (literally) and you need to do your research. If someone is serious about it they will do that. Same applies to any dog but many owners unfortunately don't realise until it's too late and the dog ends up being rehomed, often with problems.

Sorry: this ended up being massively long.

Reading this thread has made me wonder is whether increasing problems with retrievers (inc Labs) is because a lot of working line dogs are finding their way into pet homes. A show-line Lab might nominally be 'a gundog' but it's a different kettle of fish from a working-line dog, especially one from high-drive field-trialling lines.

As I've said before, we see a lot of undoubtedly well-intentioned spaniel-owners on this board tearing their hair out over 'our lovely working cocker spaniel boy/girl' who has no lead manners/ resource guards/ is destructive/ gets hysterical if it sees a cat/ can't be off-lead due to zero recall. The dog has almost certainly not been given what it needed, and has turned into a frustrated lunatic instead.

And it's not just due to breeders not giving a shit who they sell dogs to. I know someone who bred a litter of high-drive HPRs. I know him, I know what he's like, when he says he explained to all the potential owners what these dogs were like, what the sire and dam of the litter needed, I 100% believe him. A year or so later, he gets a call, the dog is snappish, not very nice, they're worried it will bite someone after it lunged at a bloke in the pub, will he take it back. So he did.

There is nothing wrong with that dog at all. Nothing that a few boundaries, adequate exercise, and appropriate training hasn't 100% resolved. The dog is now in work, and the breeder is considering possibly entering it into field trials. But it would have been easy to have seen it doing that lunge in the pub and thought, 'Tut! Terrible breeder! Either no regard for temperament or just bred for the ££££ and sold to the wrong home.'

This is one reason why it frustrates me when people say, 'Oh, well, a poodle, of course they are working dogs...' 99.9% of poodles in the UK are NOT working dogs, any more than show cockers are. Some residual ability, but not the focus, drive and ambition of a true working dog. I know a lot of working gun dogs (literally dozens) and exactly half a one of those is poodle (the other half is working spaniel). It's a useful little dog in the beating line, but it's much more chill than the average working dog. But if you think that the poodle you walk twice a week for MIL has the same working drive and the same need for fulfilment as a working cocker, or a field line HPR of whatever breed, you're in for a horrible shock when you bring your WCS puppy home, or decide to take on a German pointer out of working parents.

I generally wouldn't recommend my breed either @PyreneanAubrie - he's great for us and suits us perfectly but I'm not blind to the fact that as a breed, they can be a lot of work and while they're billed as great family dogs - they can (if not properly trained) have issues that means they can be a bit of a liability.

I think a lot of people get swept up in looks or they want a certain breed because they've seen one in the park that's lovely and so they think they're all the same.

I remember a thread many years ago by a woman who'd met a puppy Patterdale terrier and despite everyone telling her they're really not easy dogs, she was convinced they would be because the one she'd met was lovely 🙈

A lot guide dogs are part-GR (25% seems to be pretty common). The dogs look almost indistinguishable from labs till you notice a bit of feathering on the tail or a slightly different shape to the head.

@PyreneanAubrie I have people ask me what breed mine are, aren't they beautiful, and lovely recall, would I recommend... and I promptly begin my riff about the bloody HOURS of training I have ladled into the two of them, and the need for ongoing mental stimulation and ongoing training, and the nutty prey drive... the one bloke I thought would be a really good owner was an ex-police dog handler, but his wife stood there half-smiling and shaking her head: it wasn't going to happen!

Reading this thread has made me wonder is whether increasing problems with retrievers (inc Labs) is because a lot of working line dogs are finding their way into pet homes.

I think this is very much the case.

As a dog walker, I've seen a huge increase in people getting working Labradors or spaniels and not really realising what they're taking on. Around here, the same applies to border collies for some reason - they're hugely popular and yet I see lots of them stuck on the end of a lead because they've seen want to herd cars or haven't been trained in a solid recall.

Then the owners wonder why the dog chases shadows or obsesses over their ball, or guards the perimeter etc.

I remember a thread many years ago by a woman who'd met a puppy Patterdale terrier and despite everyone telling her they're really not easy dogs, she was convinced they would be because the one she'd met was lovely 🙈
Patterdales are like JRTs on steroids IME!

The one I knew had the perfect life on a farm (ratting) but was still a bolshy little shit.

(Said with love: we had a wonderful JRT and I have a lot of time for working terriers, love their attitude.)

Yep, I get it @EdithStourton , I totally agree with both of your posts about working dogs and novice owners.

I have a breed that is so stubborn and independent minded that it rarely has reliable recall - you need to put in the hours of bonding with your dog and be very, very cautious as to when and where you let them off-lead. Livestock Guarding breeds are programmed to work, you cannot train it out of them. Exactly the same as with working gundogs.

I actually curse the teddy bear cuteness of my breed as pups because it is such a liability. They are, literally, a wolf in sheep's clothing; they are immensely strong and powerful (and loud) but people think if they get one their kids can walk it 🙄Nope. Drives me mad, truly.

I rarely meet problem dogs of any description tbh. Not sure if that's through luck or just the area I live in. The only retriever I meet that's a complete handful (but well managed) is a 'silver' Labrador which tells you all you need to know!

The best thing an owner can do once they decide to get a dog bred for working is to work it. A retriever will thrive with gundog training - everyone can do it, you don't need to go and shoot pheasants if you don't want too but they need that stimulation and training.
We've got working dogs who we do work on shoots and the amount of training I do is seriously insane. It's relentless.

My friend from school her dad had two retrievers who had 5 puppies they frequently escaped from the house and ran amock in the fields behind the house running into everyone’s gardens they were very friendly but completely mental. It’s quite a sight for see a hoard of giant retriever puppies running down the road.

Ex-MIL's a dog trainer, a really good one, and specialised in retrievers as she'd had at least one and usually two for her entire adult life. She had her beloved rescue GR bitch (with full pedigree, btw) PTS for sudden aggression, as in pure, unsolicited rage. Answered why she'd been rehomed in the first place, I suppose.

That dog was absolutely lovely from Day 1 (well, almost, she didn't actually introduce them for a while because she was responsible, knew what dickheads retrievers can be and wanted to get a clear idea of any unwanted behaviour) around my DDs and incredibly well behaved, did disco dancing, agility, long walks, 100% recall, no resource guarding, got on brilliantly with her existing GR male, reliable retrieving, perfect around livestock. She'd clearly been well trained, well cared for and fully socialised. But MIL was genuinely frightened for her life.

It's been 15 years. Plenty of time for anything genetic to have dissipated across the lines, even if it had been the first instance in the line, which I very much doubt.

Just as an aside , went to Crufts earlier this year, and saw this Retriever display team. They were gorgeous.

I've always wondered if all GR were all the same after buying an 8 week old puppy many years ago . He was a biter from the start but at a very early age he was very aggressive and I had to return the puppy back to the breeder in the end , he was so nasty.

I have had Rough Collies ever since and never had any aggression problems.
They are so loving and eager to please. I have 2 at the moment and like all the others I've owned they have only ever brought love to all the family.
I think GR must have a tendency to be aggressive though I've never known another one .

If everyone avoided the back street breeders and only bought from a reputable breeder who bred to keep their own line going and kept a pup for themselves we wouldn't see all these problems we have today .

They absolutely are.

We had one near us disappear up the fells for weeks - when she was found, she was absolutely fine. Not starving, not in poor condition - living her absolutely best life, lol.

I’ve only ever known one GR named Goldie who was owned by an old man who I met when I used to walk my dog. Beautiful nature and very boisterous in playing with my dog, but luckily mine could outrun him. His owner told me he quietened down when he got to about 8. Never nasty though-he was a very creamy coloured one. Since then, I have heard a couple of people express reservations about GRs which has been borne out by this thread. I wonder if colour has anything to do with it-my friend has a red fox Labrador who is gorgeous but very high energy, barky, mischievous, into everything-very different from her other placid black lab. Since then I’ve heard the red labs are manic. Is this true?

Good you know the OP elsewhere which of course gives more strength to the observations about GR. I still tend to think there isn't a problem per se but it is always best to follow the mantra forewarned is forearmed so any issues can be picked up and hopefully dealt with quickly.

I think there are so many more dogs now, of all shape and sizes, that the law of averages says we are probably more tuned in to seeing bad behaviour, particularly if males are involved who like nothing more than posturing in the vicinity of other males. There is nothing like a juvenile male full of teenage hormones!

I do not like particular breeds being labelled for any particular trait and I sincerely hope GR do not start to have issues as they really are a lovely breed in so many ways.

All the fox red labs I know are working lines.

Working lines in all breeds are different to established show/pet lines. Working line labs are (on average, I am sure there are exceptions) more alert, lively and active than show/pet lines. The show lines tend to be heavy-set and placid, at least one they are mature.

Not all breeds have working lines and show lines, for many of the breeds which work, owners work very hard to ensure the two do not diverge, they instead are dogs which can show and work. The conformation of dogs should enable them to do the job they were bred for well. For example, many gundogs require well angulated shoulders and rear - this is to enable them to work for many hours, it will also be a large part of how they are judged in the show ring.

Labradors in particular, sadly imo have diverged so much that the ones seen in the show ring probably would not be the best for a days shooting, there are some though who are thoroughly dual purpose.

Fox reds are very popular on shoots.

When I said 'in all breeds' I wasn't clear, I meant all working breeds with a clear, well established split.

In the breed we own, a lot of people really try to keep the working dogs winning in the ring, but the ring ends up demanding things - like a flashy stride - which are not on the list of 'useful in the field', or only a certain ear set (say) is likely to win, when ear set anywhere in the normal range for the breed is just fine if you're breeding a dog for a working litter.

It's not just labs that have a huge divergence - cocker and springer spaniels, Jack Russells, bassets, greyhounds, foxhounds, border collies. It's actually depressing. Years ago now I did a graphic for a cousin to explain what I meant with photos of several breeds, ring vs field type.

I used ‘retrievers’ more broadly - tbh I’ve mostly noticed it with Labs way more than Goldies.

Goldies have their own issues but labs seem to be the popular breed for inappropriate owners… just like cockers were a few years ago!

Yes you are right and apologies for misunderstanding.

I can understand why there has been a split in some breeds but I do agree in finding it sad at some of the breeds in the ring which really are not fit for purpose, but I think the other side can also be true in that some working lines of breeds also have their faults. A flashy sidegait could be said as drive and front reach in the field and will enable a working gundog for example to have good stamina for a full days work.

It is easy to tell when judging in the ring those dogs which work if there is only one type and that is from their muscle.

I think we are now somewhat diverging from the crux of this thread so @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone I apologise!