Breeder doesn’t allow visits… walk away?

[Hawknotdove]

Hello,

I’ve found a breeder locally with puppies available in the autumn. She seems legitimate in most respects - pictures of her showing dogs and winning Crufts all over FB, sent me vetting questionnaire, then video call and wants to do a home visit. Seems dog-obsessed and has sent me hand-written info sheets on diet, care etc. She comes across as someone who lives for her dogs - possibly to the point of being a bit obsessive.

However, she says she doesn’t allow visits to her own home. She says she will pick 1 or 2 pups (depending on size of litter) than she thinks are a good fit for our family and bring them to my house with the mother when they are old enough. Also, when I did a call to meet her and the dogs, they didn’t appear to be in her house (she says they live in the house but it looked like she’d taken them to a barn for the call).

Finally, she’s bred in line so they have an in-breeding coefficient that’s higher than the breed average.

Shes’s KC assured and the parents are fully health screened.

Honestly, it’s such a mine field!!!

Walk away?

I would appreciate advice. You’ve all been so helpful so far!

Absolutely not. KC registration isn’t worth the paper it’s written on anyway, but the fact that you can’t see the parents is an enormous red flag.
And, to the annoyance of many, I’m going to fly the flag for rescue. If there is a particular dog breed you want, I guarantee you will find an associated rescue ( because - people) And yes, I’ve done it, almost 40 times. Never, ever had a bad dog.

What breed are you looking for?

Be careful this isn't a steal to order / procure to order scammer.

Is she licensed?

Reviews?

Puppy farmers can be KC registered too.

Finally, she’s bred in line so they have an in-breeding coefficient that’s higher than the breed average

That's a no right there.
And then not allowing you to visit them at home - another no.

I would walk away if you're not able to see mum with pups in situ. Bringing the pups to you suggests puppy farm.

This. There is something very sketchy going on. Poor puppies God only knows what's going on.

Breeders will have a waiting list for puppies well in advance of even the mating taking place.

This is true, but good breeders with a good set-up will welcome and expect you to go see mum and pups, possibly dad too.

Someone who gets their dog pregnant and the makes money from her puppies is not a good person. Don't encourage breeding when there are so many needing homes it's immoral and very wrong.

To answer the various questions:

Unfortunately, a rescue is very difficult as I have primary school aged children. I have had rescues in the past.

They’re border terriers.

I’m not concerned that’s she’s selling puppies that don’t exist - the mum has a positive pregnancy test and she’s not trying to take any money from me in advance.

The mum is seven and has had two previous litters based on KC entry.

Her reasons for no visits are: germs, risk of puppies being stolen.

In other respects she seems responsible - vetting me, sending info sheets with puppies’ diet and development needs, not letting them go to new homes until at least 12 weeks. This is why I’ve been a bit conflicted.

However, I don’t feel comfortable with not meeting the mum. There are also other things that are bothering me: the in-breeding, plus she didn’t appear in the video call at all (just the dogs) and she said she had someone on the waitlist for a puppy in America. I just don’t have a good feeling so I’m going to say no.

Its been very helpful to hear that many of you have had much better experiences with breeders, so thanks. I’ll hang on and look for another litter.

That's a massive red flag op

Report

There are no puppies

One of the things buyers are told to do is see the puppies with mum and see the conditions they're kept in

Deliberately breeding to order is not on

7 is too old especially having had 2 litters previously. Contact the Border Terrier Club for breeders and prospective litters. Also, do not just go for a local breeder for convenience, for the right breeder, pedigree and litter be prepared to travel.

I have heard that some breeders are now very concerned about whole litters being stolen - since puppy prices rose so much during Covid times.

7 is right on the upper age limit to be breeding. Surely you must know that? Walk away. And, primary age children are not a barrier to all rescue dogs. More difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

This.

I also wouldn’t have a pup that I couldn’t take at 8 weeks. 12 weeks is very late and if you want a well socialised and confident puppy you need to be getting them used to normal life and the things they’re going to see between 8-14 weeks.

A good breeder should be prepared to be vetted by the prospective family. At the very minimum she should allow video call visits to see the pregnant dog and her surroundings before you commit. I'd be concerned that she's a front for puppy farming or just a very poor breeder. Either way, she's not the one.

In showing term 7 is a veteran and not a time when a bitch should be having a third litter. Three litters for one bitch is a lot too.

Report her asap.

my first puppy when I was 20 young and naive was from a lady who showed at crufts, talked about all her prize winners and seemed like she loved and cared for all these dogs she was breeding yet the reality was it was all about the prizes and ego boost.

She sold me a very poorly puppy who was in intensive care for three weeks in an oxygen tent just a day after we took him home. We contacted her and she wanted nothing to do with it and never asked for another update.

any caring breeder would have been worried sick. My puppy had genetic issues and his parents should never have been able to have puppies in this first place and she knew this.

report, report, report.

I’d report too.

If I couldn’t see mum, combined with the inbreeding coefficient, the poor mum’s age too, poor bloody dog. Just greed.

If she’s legitimate (and perhaps she is) then she will have nothing to worry about.

I saw my pup with his mum, visited more than once. I still have my old boy, but if I had another I’d go for the breeders who have private fb groups so you, the breeder and other pup buyers all keep in touch.
Not sure if I’ll have another, did want a rescue but worried about their history with DD, we’ll see.

Report? To who? The KC won’t care. The only thing that matters to some breeders is cash. So feel free to report if you suspect the breeder isn’t paying tax. And RSPCA won’t care either.
Sadly it’s buyer beware when it comes to puppies.

Waiting for a planned litter is totally normal, and in fact desirable really. The breeder picking a puppy for you is also fairly common, they know which one they want, the puppies and each prospective owner and their plans so it often makes more sense for them to pick which puppy will suit which home.

But there’s no need for line breeding in a breed as numerous as border terriers and bringing them to you with no visits to them is just plain odd.

Absolutely this. Also your gut is telling you there's something not right. Don't' ignore that feeling. FWIW I'm going down the research route at the moment too and have been studying the coefficient statistics all day for certain dogs I like.
The dad of one of my previous dogs was KC registered but by God I was naive back then and looking at his inbreeding coefficient, it was something like 27%!
My old boy (his son) had SO many problems-seizures and aggression to name just two.

I had never heard of nor knew how to find out this stuff when I was younger. It's vital to understand it if you want a healthy puppy,
Furthermore, as PP said, the breeder should have a license.

This!!!