Breeder doesn’t allow visits… walk away?

[Hawknotdove]

Hello,

I’ve found a breeder locally with puppies available in the autumn. She seems legitimate in most respects - pictures of her showing dogs and winning Crufts all over FB, sent me vetting questionnaire, then video call and wants to do a home visit. Seems dog-obsessed and has sent me hand-written info sheets on diet, care etc. She comes across as someone who lives for her dogs - possibly to the point of being a bit obsessive.

However, she says she doesn’t allow visits to her own home. She says she will pick 1 or 2 pups (depending on size of litter) than she thinks are a good fit for our family and bring them to my house with the mother when they are old enough. Also, when I did a call to meet her and the dogs, they didn’t appear to be in her house (she says they live in the house but it looked like she’d taken them to a barn for the call).

Finally, she’s bred in line so they have an in-breeding coefficient that’s higher than the breed average.

Shes’s KC assured and the parents are fully health screened.

Honestly, it’s such a mine field!!!

Walk away?

I would appreciate advice. You’ve all been so helpful so far!

Loads of people commenting about no puppies in the autumn.... my bitch just came into season (not a border terrier) so I know if we had pups it will be 2 months for gestation and bring us to end of august, then 8 weeks brings us to end of October. So not at all weird if there are no pups till autumn. Unless they are a puppy farm and churn them out monthly!!!

But I agree- not seeing the puppies in the home would stop me from purchasing.

My friend wanted a Border Terrier puppy so I put her in touch with my other friend who owned and had bred them (but wasn't going to be breeding another litter). BT friend gave her some contact details for breeders but she would have had to wait for the colour and sex she wanted so started looking at adverts online. We both advised her (first time dog owner) of what to look for - see mum with pups etc. but she and her mother drove off to some house in Wales where they only saw the pups (they'd been assured they would be able to see mum but of course there was some bs story when they got there) and of course alarm bells rang but they didn't want to come away without one. Now they feel bad they supported a puppy farmer and the dog they bought has had some health issues.

Please contact your local Border Terrier club (there are 7) - the secretary will know of upcoming litters
https://www.theborderterrierclub.co.uk/tips.html

or breed rescue https://www.borderterrierwelfare.co.uk/

Nope.
Don't pay for a kc registered puppy in those circs.

Well, the answer is obvious, isn't it? Rehome, don't buy, or you'd be indirectly supporting the puppy mill system.

I would wonder why. So I agree with walk away.

I disagree with this, based on my experience. I could have taken our dog at 8 weeks, but as it was the summer holidays and I had primary aged children, I asked if I could collect at 12 week so I had more time 1:1 with him and the ability to be at home. It was the best thing I could have done.

He had had his jabs, he was toilet trained, slept through the night from day 2 and was well adjusted and socialised because of the other dogs in the house. We took him to a country fayre straight from the breeders and he was happy with all of the dogs and had a brilliant time.

With a good breeder, 12 weeks should not be a problem and if we get another, I will be doing the same. If for any reason, I didn't go to the same breeder, I would be walking away from any breeder who insisted on me collecting at 8 weeks.

Nope one think you should see is where the pups are being raised and mum too. If she’s a reputable breeder she should have a license for breeding doesn’t matter if KC or not. I’d deffo be suspicious especially when these pups won’t have had their jabs

Actually, the breeder that I know that it strictest about this is the strictest about who her dogs go to. She has a waiting list years long. She can afford to not let anyone on her property because she doesn't care who she says no to.

Her puppy buyers have all met her dogs at shows, though.

Puppy farm

Get a rescue dog. Far more rewarding and cheaper.

Canine ageing is very much determined by age and breed. I wouldn't breed a 6 / 7 year old boxer or mastiff.

Kc presumably has a blanket cut off because it's too complex to do it by breed.

Thanks all. I have already said no to this breeder. For what it’s worth, i found her on a reputable website (mentioned above) and she wanted to vet me thoroughly. I suspect she was just a bit eccentric and very protective of her dogs. However, not being able to visit is a big problem for me. With small kids, I want to be comfortable that the pups are being well-socialised.

Onto the next breeder. Found directly on KC website. I spoke to her on phone. They basically keep pets, work them a bit and breed when they want another dog for themselves. Say the mum (pre pups) slept in their bed at night and the whelping box has been upstairs. Busy house. Small kids next door help with socialisation. Can visit when I want. Parents are health tested. Would collect pup in mid-Aug at 10 weeks.

My worry this time is that it was all very informal. Didn’t ask many questions about my home. No talk of puppy contracts etc. However, I like the fact that it sounds like they are bred in a normal family environment. I’m nervous that “professional” breeders can be v reputable but still just churn them out. Need to decide whether to go and visit. Thoughts?

"ethical" breeders (if there is such a thing) allow the mum (and dad if applicable) to be seen in their home environment. They often have a wait list. They will discuss your lifestyle and will recommend the pup they think is suitable. They health check and do not inbreed. Or breed designer mutts like doodles.

This breeder isnt allowing you to see the environment or parents which is a major red flag. They inbreeding screams they value "look" over health and quality of life. At best they are a shitty greeder, at worst a puppy farm.

Go else where. Either contact a rescue or do research and find a legit breeder.

Puppy factory

I’d have a chat with them about health testing, I think borders are meant to be tested for SLEM? They aren’t “my” breed so forgive me if that’s wrong but check that.
Speak to her about any previous litters, is she still in touch at all, would she take the dog back if your life was upside-down in 4 years time.

Sometimes the “I just love my bitch so much I wanted one litter” lot can be the best if the bunch but sometimes awful as they can’t see past loving their dog how it’s not an ideal candidate to have a litter

you're not comfortable don't proceed. As has been said, no need to line breed with border terriers, and age 7 with three litters is not in the best interests of the bitch.

I've just picked up a pup from a Show Judge breeder. She insisted I visit at least once so that I could see her set up. WhatsApp group for all the new owners once the pups were born (and before we knew what we were getting) daily videos of the pups so we could see personalities developing. A day when we all visited together, ate cake and watched the show people, inc her and the Sire's breeder assess the show potential of them all as 3 were going to be shown (Sire was brought for us to meet). It was fascinating to watch. We were asked which pup we would want, if we had a choice, but then she had the final say in which pup went where. I would have been happy with any of them.

The most important thing was that I was totally comfortable with the set up, how the pups were being raised and the health checks. She was confident that I would be the right home for one of her precious pups. (currently sleeping at my feet). This was the bitch's second, and final, litter.

Many years ago we backed out of getting a pup from a well known breeder (different breed) as when we got there we got very bad vibes from the whole set up. A few years later she left the UK under something of a cloud re. her practices, so we dodged a bullet. Trust your gut.

I could tell you many horror stories about Crufts winning KC registered breeders that would make your hair stand on end. I've restricted myself to just a few...

GSD bought from a Crufts winning breeder with a "good" reputation. Puppy turned out to have multiple issues including cleft palate, digestive system anomalies, joint problems etc. Was taken to Fitzpatricks, who told the owners that the kindest thing would be to put the puppy to sleep, and that there was no point in treating all these multiple conditions which appeared to be hereditary. They told the breeder who refused to accept there was anything wrong with the puppy at all despite evidence to the contrary. The breeder reluctantly agreed to take the puppy back but with no return of the price paid. The next thing heard was that the bitch was withdrawn from breeding despite having been on the list of puppies due later that year.

A Crufts winner who refused to test one of her champion dogs for a known issue with that breed, as she knew full well that if it was tested it would come out as unsuitable.

A breeder stating that the father of a litter was her champion dog, when those in the know knew full well that the named dog had been away for a while when the breeding was supposed to have taken place. Another where people knew that the dog was no longer fertile due to an accident, yet was still being named as the father.

Walk away. When we got ours we saw father and mother and all 12 puppies and spent time with them in a field.

KC website is no guarantee of anything at all. Neither is a licence. Approach the breed club. And yes you must check what breed specific health tests the breed needs.

@Hawknotdove - both our pups came from homes with pet/working dogs who bred a litter maybe once every 4 years. Still had all the health tests, contracts, agreements to return etc.

I personally was more comfortable with this setup than some of the licensed breeders I got in touch with.

if you were buying a car and they said you can't check it first but they'll pick the best one for your budget, would you buy it? Pups are expensive and she sounds shady. I'd report a concern around her and then go to another breeder.

Walk away. Puppy farms and back yard breeders exist because people are willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money for a puppy. Buyers are a big part of the problem as it’s all about supply and demand. Unscrupulous breeders don’t care about the dogs and will breed from puppies when they have their first season. They also breed from older dogs that have churned out loads of puppies already. It is barbaric. The breeders will pull the wool over your eyes and say all the right things and take fabulous photographs for the glossy website. It’s profit over welfare and the poor dogs do suffer.

https://x.com/puppylovecamp?lang=en

https://m.facebook.com/puppylovecampaigns/

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmenvfru/575/575vw44.htm

I really don’t understand why people keep these breeders in business. A dog is part of the family not a handbag.

Such a nasty business.

There are so many beautiful dogs and pups abandoned to overcrowded rescue centres.
Why not even take a look?

We’ve always had rescued dogs and they have been and still are the most amazing pets.

No, I would never buy a puppy without seeing it in it's home surroundings with it's mother. I don't worry about seeing the father as if the father is from the same breeder I tend to think it's an easy/lazy mating. I would rather know that the breeder has used the right dog in terms of temperament and conformation even if it means that they have had to travel to the other end of the country or abroad. It would be rare that the perfect stud dog lives next door.
KC Assurance means nothing, it is something you pay for. When searching for puppies I only tick the health test box, it is amazing how many KC Assured breeder have no health testing. A breeder can also have the KC Insurance for the puppies for about 6 weeks, this is also a good sign.
We went to a local Open Show and looked around, found a bitch and owner who seemed to offer what we wanted and put our name on their waiting list. We have been on their waiting list for 18 months and a litter is due soon. I'll admit to getting impatient and regularly looked on the KC website. You can check how many litters each bitch has had which is an enlightening experience, bitches that were born in 2019 already having had 3 litters screams puppy farmer to me. I would also avoid anyone with more than 1 litter of puppies for sale at 1 time, these animals might be well breed but I feel that financial gain is the main motivation for the puppies existence which doesn't sit well with me.
As for the photo of her winning at Crufts being genuine or not, the results can be found easily online for verification.

Winning at Crufts doesn’t make them a good breeder.
Not everyone can have/wants a rescue dog. I wanted a wolfhound. The only ones that come into rescue wouldn’t have been ok with cats and small kids. Often dogs in rescue need a specific type of home. And those people wanting a lab as a first family pet wouldn’t be suitable.