Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

My ex-MIL travelled to visit us last month and pupster was a menace while she was here, jumping and mouthing much more than usual, not listening to me etc.

This just sounds like poor management to me. If you know your dog gets excited around visitors then you need to keep them on a lead or use a crate, tether or baby gate system to keep them away from visitors until they've calmed down, then allow them to greet calmly. If they jump or mouth then they get removed - and repeat until they learn that being calm means they can stay in the room.

There are lots of alternative behaviours you can teach too, like "go to your bed" or "four paws on the floor" or "sit" - something incompatible with jumping, and then reward, reward reward.

Find something he loves , probably a ball if he’s like mine then don’t allow them in the house and use them to keep attention and train recall that’s what I did . Always carry one more ball than you think you need so that you’ve always got one for distraction purposes . Compromise - our dog didnt recall so I taught him a solid down and then he waited for me to get to him . Don’t set them up to fail so be selective about where you let them offlead - beaches , parks , our local heath all fine , woods , open country with a risk of livestock , anywhere with lakes and ducks keep them on a longline .

@OokBook I have had lots of l different dogs over the years.

The best behaved have always been the ones that I took to regular training classes. Doing something together rather than let the dog run riot in a park works wonders! (Dogs still need the riot sessions, just not exclusively!)
I'm a big fan of the KC good citizen dog scheme (all dogs are welcome!) It takes an average of 24 months to achieve gold standard.
Regular training and working through the levels will give you the opportunity to build that lovely, solid bond.

Plus, club based training is more affordable than your pricy behaviorist or private dog trainer.
I know KC has a bad reputation for some atrocious breeding, but the training guidelines are good.

Okay but how do I send her to her bed - as in how do I train her to go to her bed when I tell her to? (My pup actually needs a new bed. She's torn 2 up) 😳

@Floralnomad Thanks 😊 I'm a first time dog owner so I do feel a bit clueless. Grateful for all the advice I can get

Training dog to go to bed.

Dogs Trust Training your dog to get used to visitors and going to their bed

@fieldsofbutterflies

"This just sounds like poor management to me. If you know your dog gets excited around visitors then you need to keep them on a lead or use a crate, tether or baby gate system to keep them away from visitors until they've calmed down, then allow them to greet calmly. If they jump or mouth then they get removed - and repeat until they learn that being calm means they can stay in the room.

There are lots of alternative behaviours you can teach too, like "go to your bed" or "four paws on the floor" or "sit" - something incompatible with jumping, and then reward, reward reward."

Well I've already said I'm not sure what I'm doing with training, confused by all the contradictory advice and anxious I might be doing a rubbish job of it, so your criticism about poor management is likely correct 🤷‍♀️ but the critical tone is unnecessary and exactly the kind of pressure I was talking about.. I never understand why people are disapproving towards others who are trying their best at something and just not doing very well at it. If I wasn't trying to learn that would be different.

I have a crate for her, but she's always cried when I put her in there, even with toys and treats, so I feel guilty when I do. On the Dogs Trust site it says not to use the crate as punishment, so I was also worried I was being cruel or hindering her training by putting her in there when her behaviour was difficult. What the behaviourist said in full was: call her name to get her attention and when she stops the behaviour, praise her straight away.. then if she starts again pick her up calmly and silently put her in the crate.. then don't let her out again until she's quiet - so until she stops crying. The Dogs Trust advice is to redirect mouthing to toys, or ignore, fold your arms, look away and don't give any attention, or leave the room.. and in general to ignore any behaviour you don't want/withdraw attention.. and reward the behaviour you do want with praise and treats or toys.

I'm autistic and I don't think I have what people think of as common sense; I often struggle to figure practical things out on my own, need things explained to me that other people think are obvious, don't see solutions that are obvious to other people etc. and I tend to need the idiot's guide to anything.. very clear, step by step instructions. Rules that are vague or contradictory cause me a lot of anxiety; I need to know I'm doing things the right way or the way I'm supposed to.

At Christmas time I got a big baby/pet fence to go around the Christmas tree, to keep her from hazards like the fairy lights and baubles. After Christmas I started using it as a portable stair gate/playpen.. I have it across the bottom of the stairs to stop her going up, but when she starts mouthing, pulling at our socks/trouser legs etc. and I can't get her to stop using any of the advice above (redirecting to a rope toy etc.), then I pull the pet fence across the middle of the hall and put her down on the other side of it (so she's kind of in a playpen with her crate, food and water bowls, toy box and snuffle mat). I was continually doing that while ex-MIL was here.. trying to use the methods to get pup to behave, then if she didn't stop putting her in her playpen for a few minutes.

Pup is usually friendly towards guests and often behaves better when we have visitors; this was the first time she'd behaved worse than usual with a visitor. However last week my new CPN came round for an appointment and pup began running up and down barking when he came in. I told her to come, so that I could pick her up and put her in her playpen, but she ignored me and I had to chase her around and catch her, it was really embarrassing. Then when I put her in her playpen (with a treat, all her toys and blankets etc.) she started barking and kept barking all the way through the appointment until the CPN left (he seemed concerned, as though he felt I was being cruel leaving her to bark in there.. and I was worried maybe I was). She'd had a walk shortly before he arrived and I took her out to play with her ball after he left.

I have taught her to sit but she doesn't always obey, I'd say she does what I tell her maybe about half the time. I've no idea how to teach her to go to her bed.

Thanks. Unfortunately in person training classes are inaccessible for us as we live on an island and there are no dog training classes here. The best I could do was the Dogs Trust online training school, which was 4 x one hour group lessons via zoom. Otherwise I definitely would've taken pup to classes.

@KeenOtter Thanks. I worded what I said wrong.. what I really meant was, if sending her to bed is what I'm meant to do when she's misbehaving, what do I do when she also ignores me telling her to go to bed 😅(which seems likely given that I've been following all the online steps/instructions to get her to do other things and she either learns to do it but ignores me half the time, or I've not managed to teach her to do the thing yet despite trying and trying).

Hypothetical question really, all I can do is keep trying and keep going with the advice I've chosen and stick to it and hope it eventually works. My point is that it's very difficult, which is why it's unreasonable of people to be so mean about folk who haven't managed to train their dogs well.

OP I feel like I've derailed your thread, apologies. Thanks to the people who gave me puppy training advice though, I'm grateful. OP, hopefully I've proved your point about there being so many different training techniques out there that go in and out of fashion and contradict one another , making it difficult to know what's best.

@OokBook I wasn't intending to be rude, apologies if that's how it came across.

I'm also autistic and was just trying to be factual. Nothing that you describe screams badly behaved, just badly managed.

If you are within an hour of Winchester, I'll give you some help. No charge.

From the mention of SSPCA I think Ookbook is in Scotland, and not even mainland Scotland, sadly.

OokBook, someone mentioned Steve Mann. I think he's the author of Easy Peasy Puppy Squeeze, which might appeal to you if you want clear instructions.

Eight months is a time for all puppies to be little horrors, though, so just keep going.

@HappiestSleeping Aw that's so kind 💗 I'm nowhere near you but thanks

You probably weren't rude at all, I'm just hypersensitive 🫣 and I understand being frequently misunderstood esp tone wise, so solidarity 💗

@ExtraDay Thanks 💗 I'll look that up and thanks for the kind words

Can you get any training help via zoom?

Loads of trainers offer it.

Re what do you do if your dog does not do what you ask.

Check she understands what you are asking her to do
Is she too overstimulated to listen (eg when guests come round way too exciting to think!)

Are you rewarding her for doing what you ask.

So re sending her to her bed - always give her a reward. However if something more exciting is happening eg visitors she will find it much harder to do so maybe have her on her lead pop her in her bed and reward her.

So you did the right thing popping her in her crate but maybe if you had chucked a few treats in there when she was quiet she would have calmed down a bit.

Steve Mann is the author of that book and also the founder of the IMDT.

No worries, was worth asking. 👍

In that case, get yourself a good trick training book ...
I like 101 dog tricks by Kyra Sundance.
Just do 2-3 very short sessions each day.

It's not important how quickly you work through it but just spending that time with your dog, finding out what he can do. Plus, some tricks might not be achievable for your dog!
My cockapoo, for example, won't do roll over, I have tried everything, except brute force- nope won't do it!
The only time she rolls is if she finds some lovely stinky fox poo! 🤔 ...

My old dog had IVDD, and though she would willingly roll over when younger, I do wonder if it damaged her spine to do so. I'm trying to teach a side lie to the current pup instead.

I agree with those who say not all dogs respond to a single method of training but I do not agree with any pain based methods.

Our dog is highly intelligent but also very anxious. He picks up new tricks extremely quickly and invents his own games. But when we're outside he won't respond to treats or toys. So difficult to train him in outdoor things, like heel, not pulling, not chasing, recall etc. He's always on a long line except in our woods or at the beach (if it's not busy).

I tried 100% force free training following DTAS. According to them I should never say no to my dog. Because of this he didn't learn boundaries and did whatever he wanted. A balanced trainer showed us how to create boundaries with a house lead. The same trainer used corrective sprays and slip leads but we rejected those. Trainer didn't push it but also had no alternatives. So I thought we got the 'balance' just right. We used bits from this and bits from that. Now our dog is a lot happier and so are we.

He's a springer so pulls like a train. A halti is the only safe way to walk him, but according to DTAS this is aversive.

Do you think the halti hurts his nose? He pulls so hard with his normal collar that it chokes him and damages his trachea. It must hurt but doesn't stop the pulling. Is that better? Or should he just not go out?

Training should never involve fear or pain, but you need to use whatever method suits your dog. Our boy needs firm boundaries and forced control. So I will say no to him and use a halti. (I also say yes to him and reward him whenever he's doing the right thing).

@SuddenlyOld your most recent post is long so I won't address it all. Heel is a position, your dog should be at heel no matter how fast/slow you are walking.

'Aversive' is what is most uncomfortable to your dog. Many dogs will find haltis uncomfortable and scrape their faces/paw at them attempting to remove them. Teaching your dog to walk with a slip lead to heel IMO is less aversive as my dog walks with hers on and as she keeps the heel position it is always loose. You wouldn't walk a dog who doesn't understand the heel position on a slip lead and allow it to pull until it is choking itself. If your dog 'pulls like a train' you haven't taught it the heel position and conditioned it in many different environments/situations.

I agree, although when you're starting with a pup, you still can get a lot of surprises with temperament.

Terriers are very under appreciated!