Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

fieldsofbutterflies
Not just because I love him, but I do believe that doesn’t necessarily matter if dogs respect you, and actually I don’t think it matters in some areas in life either

Positive reinforcement training is wonderful if your dog is food or toy motivated.

If your dog isn’t, and has a high prey drive, then to keep it safe you need to use an alternative method of training for things like recall. It’s common sense. Some dogs I’ve known, nothing short of holding a live hare would have got their attention. I didn’t want them run over but I did want them to have exercise off lead by the time they were 3 years old.

For other things that aren’t about keeping them safe and alive, no need to use aversives.

I think balanced training makes sense, and that means aversion tactics are employed. But I think it can be a lazy crutch. There should be a lot of R+ rewards.

My dog is so small that if I use more than a few "high value treats" his diet will quickly become unbalanced. So I have to use a portion of his daily kibble allowance. Luckily, he finds them motivating - walking him before meals helps with that. But if he's super focused on something, waving even chicken at him won't be enough. I use the treat rewards for the times he listens to reinforce that but sometimes I have to use an aversion technique to get his attention. I have found that the compressed air spray sound definitely works for that. I try to use it sparingly so he doesn't become desensitised to it. I get his attention and repeat the voice commands then reward his compliance.

I don't think he will cease to love me and enjoy our relationship if I occasionally inflict something aversive. It's what dogs do to one another to enforce boundaries.

Can I ask what's the aversive method you have used for your dog's recall?
Not a disingenuous question, I'm genuinely interested, as a fellow sirloin waver.

I'm curious too. I'm presuming shock collars.

My dog ( patterdale x high prey drive) has been trained using my methods which are positive reinforcement and common sense and he turned out just fine .

It's easy. There are decades of research showing what works and what doesn't. Look at that and follow it.

As others have said, this is known to be positive, reward based training.

Nobody who knows anything about dog training would have suggested following most of the people you list, although oddly, if you read Barbara Woodhouse's book, there is quite a lot of positive stuff in there.

Can't find any evidence that any others you list have any qualifications / affiliation with a known professional dog training body.

People often say that they can't use many treats else their dog will get fat. Mine is 6.6 Kg She is not fat. I use BAGS of treats but I make sure they are part of her nutrition and adjust her meals accordingly. Her food isn't high value enough.

People also feed too much. They only need a taste. An average treat for my dog would be 2 - 3 mm cube of pate or high quality training treat broken up. In my training classes it's common for people to feed half a cocktail sausage a time or a whole biscuit! It's just not necessary. You need to leave your dog wanting more.

You dog will be motivated by something. They all are. You just need to find that thing.

Dogs don't actually use aversive on each other - they mostly use management to avoid escalation. Poorly socialised ones who don't understand canine communication do.

That is about the only thing that will stop a dog chasing and hunting as it is such an innate behaviour. Even then often as time goes on it won't stop the dog as the desire is so strong.

I much prefer management. Training can fail. Management never does.

I didn't say anything about respect

Ok, I expect I am going to torn to shreds for this but here goes.... To interrupt chasing I needed to be able to communicate with her at distance and so I used a vibration collar under the guidance of a trainer. The one I used had 3 vibration settings and I only ever needed to use the mildest one. I'm sure it's not going to matter, but I have a very strong bond with my dog and I know exactly what she looks like when she's frightened - she was frightened of a horse the first time she saw one, she's frightened of fireworks, she's frightened of men who run up behind me... I know she wasn't afraid of the vibration, but obviously she'd prefer her collar not to vibrate. You start out training them at home under low distraction - essentially you train them that the vibration stops when they turn towards you, then when they take a step towards you, building up to stopping when they come back to you. We proofed it at home and built up to proper chasing behaviours, it worked. Where previously whistle and recall commands were ignored, the vibration got her attention and she came back. Then we coupled it the whistle (which I'd already trained as recall but it was ineffective for chasing) and then dropped the vibration collar. So now I only use a whistle and she always gets very high value rewards for whistle recall (roast chicken, proper pork sausage etc). It wasn't the first thing I tried, we did the long line, careful environmental management - but it's very hard to avoid everything moving faster than a walking pace and we live in a semi rural area with farms for miles and sheep go for a wander. She's a very happy, sociable much loved dog, I use rewards all the time in her training, the vibration collar was only used for recall from chasing and never again. But I feel I am about to get my arse handed to me...

I use a lot of management too, though I've never thought about it using that term. I set my dog up to win, so avoid certain areas, keep an eye out for triggers (while she is engaged with me so I spot them first). It is pretty full on, I can see why some people might prefer a shock collar so they can disengage from their dog and have a less mentally draining walk, but I'd never do that to my girl, she's such a sweet, trusting and sensitive soul <3 plus we have a great bond as a result of all the engagement.

@HowTheStoryEnds I am 100% with you.

We will be in the minority on this board, but I've accepted that.

I value freedom for my dogs extremely highly. Management CAN fail - and often does (and so can training - which is why I have trained my dogs to avoid sheep AND use a lead through pastures with sheep in them.)

fieldsofbutterflies
I was saying about respect, unless it’s all a big fake you can see the dogs respect him. I used to work with horses and some of the best horsey people didn’t have qualifications but look, it’s just my opinion and I haven’t had many dogs, just enjoying the programme at the mo (because I see my dog in many of the dogs!)

If you condition a positive interrupter it wil have the same effect as your aversive interrupter but a less negative emotion to your dog.

Dogs will experience positive punishment in life but I do not want to be the one handing it out to my dog it at all possible.

E collars can fail. Recent incident of dog dying running off the cliffs in St Ives chasing a seagull wearing an ecollar that did not work.

yep, imagine my surprise when walking though a field that said "no livestock in field" on the gate and then turned the corner to be faced with a solitary lamb. But I had my whistle and some sausage and she came back to me.

Personal opinion but the vibration collar feels horrendous, as bad as a shock from the e collar. The vibration lasts much longer than the shock and literally makes your brain shake.

I tried the mild setting on myself, I put the collar on, it felt ok to me, I would not have used it with her if it had made my brain shake

But a whistle and some sausage is a positive way to get your dog back? I know you think the vibration collar was necessary in getting you to this stage, but maybe it wasn't, maybe you just wanted faster results than positive training could give you... No one can say for sure, but if your dog can respond to it now, it seems like it was always possible (i.e., it's not that they simply have too high a prey drive, if that was the case you'd still be using the collar).

@Unluckycat1 I had tried for years with no success. I am not being disingenuous either, I'd like to now, how could I have made positive only successful? The trainer we used said from the outset that the plan is always to phase the vibration collar out. I had employed three positive only trainers before finally seeking the opinion of a balanced trainer

I am aware that we will never agree on aversive training.

However the attitude that ecollars or vibrations collars are not aversive or causing discomfort to a dog from people using it is baffling. That is why it works. It has to be positive punishment or more unpleasant than the trigger to get the dogs attention.

I don't think the dogs respect him at all, but I'm aware a lot of that is personal opinion.

Then again, I don't think that getting up in the face of a Great Dane, pointing your finger and shouting "no" is how you get them to do what they're asked anyway 🤷‍♀️

It is full on but then I like to walk WITH my dog rather than walk my dog so I tend to engage with her anyway. We trained a check in rather than a recall so that gives us time to assesses and the recall is there if we need it. It's become habit for her to do a bit of hunting (in sight) then fly back for snacks OR now a release and then go again.

You do get used to it. No you can't zone out, use your phone or listen to something you need to concentrate on but then I don't walk for that tbh.

Fear is often mistaken for respect...