Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

Yeah, I think that pulling is self-rewarding. Sometimes even having heavily reinforced the heel position, the desire to pull just takes over.

If you have a dog that needs to get out of the house, you can't avoid taking it for a walk (and reinforcing the pulling) while you go back to basics.

For pulling, I found that I needed to use aversion to break that cycle.

I think the optimal tool can depend a lot on the individual dog.

It also depends on the owner - and I think you have to be comfortable and have your timing right to use a slip lead

I found a chain martingale really useful here. It doesn't hurt - the chain does not touch the skin - it just makes a noise. You adjust it so it doesn't tighten enough to make the dog uncomfortable.

I think the martingale is slightly reminiscent of a bitch scruffing a pup to get it to behave.

The whole discussion could have been left here.

He pulls so hard with his normal collar that it chokes him and damages his trachea

My little cockapoo was just like that. I don't like a halti on small dogs, they can do a lot of damage just like collars.
Now, read on with caution as all dogs are different!
I got so fed up with the pulling, that I just randomly dropped the lead and told her to go wherever she wanted to go. This was on a wide pavement, on an industrial estate with a grass verge between us and the road road was busy with slow traffic (she hates the noise anyway!)

Poor dog was mortified and stopped, looked at me & the lead and wouldn't move. I just walked past her and she had no choice but to follow. I gave her the heel comand after a few steps. She was happy to oblige and have my attention!

Before hand, I spent hours trying to teach her heel & loose lead walking- nothing worked. She's still not great on a lead, but off lead on pavements and busy places She's the best trained dog you can meet. She will automatically fall in beside me.
Some dogs have conditioned themselves to pull, we have to undo that conditioning... I think I shocked my dog, took away her safety net beside that busy road ... if I'd done that with my boy, he'd taken off towards all the discarded junk beside the road!

Well, I found it enlightening.

It was pretty obvious that all posters cared for their dog's well-being, but there was a clear split in priorities.

Some of us are prepared to cause our dogs startle, discomfort and even on rare occasions pain to ensure that they are safe off-lead in a wide range of environments and do not required second-by-second management, because they are convinced that being on-lead for most of their walks would drive their dogs slowly insane. Personally I would prefer not to cause my dogs upset like that, but I still do it because to me their freedom is really important. I find longlines dangerous (I've seen a dog nastily injured by one, and have a friend who badly broke a finger using one when trying to recall train her dog) and all our off-lead options locally can spring anything on you, from rabbits to escaped cows (depending on location). Our use of aversion doesn't mean that we don't also use oodles of positive reinforcement.

The other group is not prepared to ever deliberately use fear, pain, discomfort, anxiety etc to show their dogs where the boundaries lie, because they think it is unnecessary, unkind and risks the dogs' welfare. This means that they can be very, very good at using positive reinforcement, but many of them either do not let their dogs off other than in contained areas, or have to very carefully manage where and when their dogs are off-lead. Some people get incredibly consistency of recall using +R only but IME they have generally been in a position to slowly increase distractions, which is not a route open to everyone (my list of locations would be garden, then enclosed fields, then all bets are off).

Both sides have stories to support their arguments. The +R only ones have accounts of dogs made anxious by bad aversive training. Those who will use punishment have stories of dogs where management failed and the dog ended up hit by a car, and of dogs sent loopy and frustrated by being on a lead or longline all the time.

We had one of those locally: a Labrador who gradually became a reactive barking mess. His owners eventually went to an e-collar trainer and the dog is so much happier.

As I said, I am in the freedom camp and prepared to use punishment to teach the dog to stop certain behaviours. There are plenty of well-regarded trainers in there with me, not least Steven R Lindsay whose 3-volume epic on dog training remains the most comprehensive book on the topic.

@SuddenlyOld have you tried a double D-point harness and a double ended lead for walking rather than a halti?

@EdithStourton

I don't know why you seem to insist that it's a choice between aversive methods or a life on a lead.

My dogs are working gundogs and have been trained entirely force free. They're off lead every day in the woods and open spaces. We encounter deers, pheasants and hares regularly. The idea that the only way to have freedom is through the use of an ecollar is one that I see frequently touted but it's not the reality.

My dog is on the lead maybe 5% of her walking time (which is hours) rurally. Those fairly rare places where I either know there are livestock very close or cannot guarantee her safety if she runs off (which she never has). Or if it’s the rules (open access land which we sometimes walk through) Thats not life on a lead. Thats responsible ownership.

Actually a martingale is designed not to hurt. It’s for dogs who have bigger necks than heads to allow a collar not to slip off. My last dog wore one. I didn’t use it as a training aid.

A choke collar hurts. You ‘only need the noise’ as the dog has learnt noise = pain so in time the noise has the same emotional result as the pain. Fear.

Its conditioning. Not all conditioning is kind.

Front ring harnesses fitted well are great tools to stop pulling whilst you train. I’ve used them on all sorts of dogs in training classes. Head collars can be fine too if conditioned positively and fitted well.

A chain martingale is different to a sighthound martingale. There's a short check chain where you clip the lead; the chain does not go around the neck. You use it the same way you use a check chain. It makes the same noise that a check chain does, but it can't hurt the dog (unless you do really stupid things with it).

Also, it's a check chain, not a choke. I don't use them, but if there is any choking at all, it's being used incorrectly and that trainer should not use them.

Used correctly, check chains do not hurt. They are mildly unpleasant. I know this because I've tested one on myself (upper arm, not neck, but the thicker skin there is more comparable to a dog's thicker skin). A check chain should mimic the sensation of a bitch disciplining a pup.

Yes I know the difference. So answer me this. If the chain is just making a noise how is it teaching the dog not to pull?

In order for something to be effective when it is not reward reinforcement it has to cause a negative emotional response in the dog. You are describing the same effect as a choke or check chain or slip lead which works by causing pain. I know as I used to use then before I found kinder and much more effective ways. I come from a punishment based way of training as have most of the good reward based ones now.

It’s called a check chain as the check precedes the choke. The check is not enough without the choke. You just end up check = choke to the dog.

We all use mild aversives. Last night I was grilling something and my dog wandered in and went to have a sniff ‘getyourheadoutoftheovenplease’ to which her ears twitched back momentarily as she found that a bit weird but she pulled her head out and I sent her back into the other room to do something else. A mild aversive causes uncertainty and may interrupt a behaviour (I prefer positive interrupters but human) but won’t stop it. Dog will have forgotten next time I grill something and forget to shut her out. Something has to cause pain and fear to be long term effective.

‘Check’ your dog and look at its body language. I can guarantee it won’t be neutral.

Because the noise/vibration of the chain is an unpleasant stimulus in itself, of course. With a check chain, there is also a mild unpleasant grabbing sensation. I wouldn't call it painful, though.

And there is no choking! Have you ever even done obedience? That's read the first thing that you are taught about using one! NEVER EVER allow any choking!

I told you, I don't use a check chain with my current dog. Never have, never needed it. I very rarely even use a chain martingale these days, and I haven't "checked" in years.

As for body language, if I was ever needing to "check", if I were getting a change in body language, the most I would get was some of the things a pup would do when disciplined by an older dog. If there were any more than that, then one should not use aversives with that dog.

Humans aren’t dogs though and they damn well know it. When dogs step in it’s incredibly subtle unless your dog has poor social skills.

Mature dogs are subtle, unless you know what to look for. Puppies can be downright rude.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any pack dominance nonsense.

I agree that dogs have a far better natural understanding of human behaviour / body language than horses do. With horses, you do need to "speak their language" to a degree, less so with dogs.

I think it's useful to have an understanding of how dogs interact with each other, though. Most pet dogs don't get to mix with each other the way working dogs do. It's fascinating to watch them learn from each other.

@EdithStourton Steve R Lindsay has a lot to say about shock collars. He does say they are an affective training method. He says and most people will agree that punishment works. That doesnt mean other methods do not work.

He also writes a lot about the need for education when training with them, the fall out, of using as he calls them Electronic devices.

He discusses at length how and when punishment should be used and should be used carefully due to the fall out of punishment based training.

He berates the manufacturers lack of information on the strength of the devices, he berated them being able to be purchased off the shelf without training. He noted that electronic devices for dog collars were minimum of 30 milliamps and could be as strong as 400 milliamps To put this in context cattle probs are 10 milliamps.

To quote Lindsay without his other comments does not really give the full picture of his views on e collars.

For every "big" name in dog training in favour of punishment I can name your more that dont.

@atlaz you said,
I don't know why you seem to insist that it's a choice between aversive methods or a life on a lead.
What I actually said (07:50):
Some people get incredibly consistency of recall using +R only but IME they have generally been in a position to slowly increase distractions, which is not a route open to everyone.
Honestly, and I am not being snarky, I think it's brilliant that you have trained dogs to work under the gun using +R. It takes skill and dedication to train a gundog whichever way you do it. But I would 100% prefer it if you read my posts properly before accusing me of saying things I didn't say.

I got a long way with +R with one of my dogs. But hares were our nemesis.

@KeenOtter
@EdithStourton Steve R Lindsay has a lot to say about shock collars. He does say they are an affective training method. He says and most people will agree that punishment works. That doesnt mean other methods do not work.
Lindsay also says, 'Despite obvious limitations and risks, aversive procedures are a necessary aspect of dog training.'

He urges the use of minimal aversion, and he clearly warns that high-level shocks can cause serious problems. But he was also highly critical of the paper by Schilder and van der Borg which is frequently cited as showing the evils of e-collars.

Force Free organisations are keen on quoting and referencing Lindsay, without giving us the full picture of what he believes and advises. Personally, I really like his approach: that you do as much as you can, within reason, via positive reinforcement, and use punishment sparingly and with caution.

We are not going to agree. We both care about the welfare of our dogs, but we have different perspectives on what that welfare entails. So long as my dogs are motivated, happy and trusting, I don't think that I can be going too far astray.

Well yes I know this. But...

1. He does heel in the garden but not outside. Do you know why?
2. I have never used a slip lead. Why do you mention slip leads. His normal collar was choking him because he pulls so hard. The halti doesn't hurt him or damage him.
3. Don't assume he isn't trained. I train with him every day. If he won't walk properly after 17mo of training what should I do? Not walk him?

So many know-it-alls who like to be condescending 🙄

Yes. He's not so bad with his lead attached to the front of his harness. Nowadays he only pulls really badly at the start of a walk in his exciting places (woods/beach) or if he's somewhere new. We were advised to use a flirt pole or pull toy to try and get rid of his over excitement but it didn't work. As soon as play stops he goes back to pulling. He never pulls after he's had a good runaround followed by a relaxing sniff.

@SuddenlyOld I recently started doing some scent work in the garden with my beagle before walks, it seems to get out of some of that "buzzing" energy and definitely helps with is lead walking.

In reference to your point one, my immediate thought is that the training hasn't been progressive enough.

Did you move from the garden to the drive (figuratively, I don't know your house layout), and then from the drive to the street outside your house, and then to outside your neighbour etc. etc. working your way towards the park. Then a different park, then a different park etc.

It takes a while to proof a behaviour.

@SuddenlyOld you did mention slip leads in your previous post

'A balanced trainer showed us how to create boundaries with a house lead. The same trainer used corrective sprays and slip leads but we rejected those.*'
*
If your dog can walk to heel in the garden but not out and about it's because the behaviour hasn't been conditioned in that particular environment and around certain distractions or the dog is choosing to ignore you because the environment is more rewarding than paying attention to you.

The reason I brought up slip leads is that you mentioned you rejected the use of them, I'm assuming because you find them aversive. The point I was making is that a dog walking to heel on a loose slip lead is less likely to cause themselves damage than a dog pulling like buggery on a harness/flat collar and lead. All of these things are just tools. If the dog doesn't know the behaviour these are either used as management tools (like a halti). I'm not trying to be condescending but having had all of the dog bondage gear I could buy in the past I know that none of it is worth a damn if the dog doesn't know the behaviour.