Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

You haven't tried the collar on yourself though have you? I have. Yet you claim that you know how it feels and I don't. That makes no sense.

Also this:* *I dont think dogs really care about how I feel or if I am cross. They look at how their behaviour benefits them.

... is nonsense, dogs absolutely pick up on the emotional state of their handler/owner

If an electric collar only feels like a fly landing on a dog, then how would it be effective? Most dogs wouldn't notice a fly landing on them.

@HowTheStoryEnds - I understand what you have done with the e collar.

For everyone else: different dogs react to different stimulants in training.

Some to voice commands (syllables) , some to hand signals some to cretin sounds (clicker training), some to body posture and some to touch sensation (e- collar). The key is, not to use anything excessively and always at the right moment.

My Sheltie has trained me and it's all been positive food based.*

She's been very good with my youngest who doesn't like her jumping up and we taught him to turn his back. She quickly cottoned on not to with him (too late for the rest of us sadly who get the gift of a jumping jack rabbit when she greets us.)

*she quickly worked out she got a treat in the crate and it progressed to her recognising certain trends in the house that lead up to me putting her in there. So she started going and waiting in anticipation when she saw a certain thing happening. Eg me dressing my youngest means she will go in the crate soon as he's about to go to school. So she's there when I'm waving his pants around 😂

What ever motivates them. Her motivation is food and affection.

@EdithStourton I wont take your word for it no need to worry about that.

I also do not need research or an academic or a random on the internet to tell me that adding pain to training is needed. I just have a basic moral and ethical code that I stick to.

I would take balanced trainers more seriously if they admitted that the aversives are painful - they dont, they are blinked and unable to make a rational argument.

According to balance trainers and people on this thread positive reinforcement does not work but a shock collar that apparently does not cause pain or stress does work-

I would also suggest that people get dogs suitable for people environment and training abilities. If people live in a situation where it is not suitable for that type of dog eg a heavy prey driven dog dont get that type of dog. Get a dog suitable for the environment rather than shocking the dog to behave as you need it to.

I would not have a sight hound. I do not want to spend hours and hours training recall. I have working breeds with high drive as my training experience can train these dogs to a high level without the need to shock them. They range freely, happily are working dogs and recall well. It took time but no intentionally pain was inflicted on the dogs

Anyone training with e collars or prong collars are training with pain. Simple as really. It has to be unpleasant to be effective.

I chose a breed that I knew I could manage both on and off lead where I live, which is rural. One that didn’t need to run miles as I knew a large dog who needed to run with the drive I wanted to train and utilise would be difficult to manage 100% off lead here. So I went for a small dog who would be happy on a long line in areas we couldn’t trust off the lead safely. Those areas are actually very few. We regularly do many miles off the lead as we know the area well enough to make diversions. I still train disengagement from livestock and wildlife but don’t rely on it. We were recently on Dartmoor in sheep heaven and she wasn’t interested in chasing. The poo on the other hand. I’d not rely on it though. She had a great time on her long lead double clipped just in case. I trained that with positive reinforcement and desensitisation alone.

Knowing what I know and seeing how it can go badly wrong I couldn’t justify hurting or scaring a dog when I can make better choices and management.

Yep I have tried the collar on myself and also spent three days with a balanced trainer watching him teach people to use an ecollar.

It did not change my mind in anyway at all.

The stress that the dogs showed was difficult to watch.

Two of the dogs that I saw being trained came back to me at a later date to help deal with their anxiety that had increased and fear of walking in a certain area.

Not surprisingly this was the area that the ecollar was introduced.

One dog wasrunning away from sheep in a panic onto roads to avoid seeing them and getting the shock.

Unfortunately the balanced trainers do not acknowledge the fall out from the collars.

Dogs will pick up on owners emotional states but not relate it to what they have done.

I chose a breed that I knew I could manage both on and off lead where I live, which is rural. One that didn’t need to run miles as I knew a large dog who needed to run with the drive I wanted to train and utilise would be difficult to manage 100% off lead here.

See, I think this is vital - so many people pick breeds they don't know how to handle and then struggle and rely on "quick fix" aversion to get results. It's just not necessary.

I actually don't deny that aversion can work - it clearly can - but if you get it wrong, the consequences can be absolutely devastating.

People thought I was insane when I bought a terrier as a trainer. Utterly mad. Why not a collie or WCS. We work full time, one from home but still work. We needed a dog who could chill out when she’d got what she needed. We wanted an adventure buddy who was fit and hardy but be happy on a long line from time to time on our rural walks. One who wouldn’t feel cramped in our small house and garden. One who would have enough drive to want to work but not OTT. So a terrier fit that profile even though we have to work a little harder on focus and motivation to do the fancy stuff.

I do think if people bought on breed rather than looks then a lot of issues could be avoided. I see dogs here with severe problems due to inappropriate homes.

I just wonder what people suggest you do when positive only training doesn't work.

We were at the end of the road, we thought we'd 'tried everything'. The vet saw him via teams, we couldn't get him to the vet in person, at that point he planted the seed of euthanasia.

My poor boy was medicated, he wasn't himself, he was lethargic, like a zombie. That's no life.

We were ghosted by multiple force free trainers who ultimately couldn't find a solution for us after a long time trying.

For us, it was one of the last things we could have tried.

Using an e-collar on level 3 of 127, which I don't care what you say, doesn't hurt, yet is an annoying enough feeling to him to prevent horrendous, unsafe reactivity... is the lesser of 2 evils. I have a responsibility to him, but also to other dogs, livestock and people around us.

Dogs are all different, and what works for one, doesn't work for all.

Just seen this screenshotted by someone who trains at the same place as us. It's from a charity rescue page.

This is relating to a 2 year old collie. And this is the result of the force free training ideology that is rife at the moment.

Instead of training the dog, they are suggesting keeping a young collie indoors, unwalked.

The sad thing is, these people/the charity will think 'we've tried everything, and it didn't work!' And it's to the detriment to the dog!

The mind boggles.

I've never, ever known a dog that hasn't thrived on positive training. Ever.

As for the comment about the collie, have a read up on the "bucket theory". I suspect you'll dismiss it but IMO it has a lot of merit, just as it does in people.

Anyway OP, I hope I prehaps offered you a different perspective.

I really hope positive only training works well, and that's all you need. However, if it doesn't, and you've given all you can to it, there are other options out there.

We did what we needed to, to give our dog the best life. And it paid off. He has such a full, happy life now.

Over and out

Neither did I… until I did 🤷🏻‍♀️

There is a lot going on on this thread and I want to respond to it. This is going to be very long.

Does aversion cause pain or fear? It certainly can. The e-collar, well used (and it sounds as if @KeenOtter went to a terrible e-collar trainer) can be a very subtle and effective piece of kit. Since we last went around this topic a year ago, I have begun to use them on my dogs. I had a dog I could pull off prey with a squeaky toy, as long as I was able to react before she really got going. So, in some areas, at some times, I kept her on a longline while still working on the recall with the ball. One day she unexpectedly put a hare up, yanked the lead out of my hands and was gone (“stupid owner”, no; “management never fails”, also no). I have another dog who is just a hunting machine, doesn’t give a shit about toys, doesn’t give a shit about food - not compared to something with a heartbeat that she can chase. Same breed, but tougher to train. I considered their needs and our environment, and went to an e-collar trainer.

I would say that the highest shocks my dogs’ collars deliver are unpleasant. Is a high shock painful? Yes, but fleetingly. Is it very painful? No. They are very brief, and any sensation fades incredibly quickly - I know this as I have tried the maximum setting on the tender skin inside my forearm. I very, very rarely have to use them at more than a low setting: my older, bolder dog works at about 8/100, which as a PP said is like an ant walking about on you (maybe a stick insect, but you get the idea). The younger one, who dislikes loud voices, needs a slightly stronger stim. This surprised me, but I was careful with both dogs to habituate them to the collar and find their working level. I went to an experienced trainer. Have I been perfect? No. Have I fucked my dogs up? Also no. Are they, the wildlife and the livestock safer? Immeasurably so. Do my dogs show stress when stimmed? Almost never, and they both recover extremely quickly (within a few seconds). How often do I need to use the collar to stop chasing now? Hardly ever now. Rabbits today, no problem. Muntjac and pheasant as previously mentioned, no problem. Sheep? I heeled them off-lead through sheep a week ago, literally 2 or 3 feet away, with the owner’s permission. Were they scared of the sheep? No. Were they a little cautious of the sheep? One was; the other was mildly interested. Were the sheep safe? Yes. Would I ever off-lead heel them through a random field of sheep along a footpath? No. Because farmers have enough to worry about without seeing off-lead dogs in a field of sheep. Because, like management, training can fail. I have known a wonderfully well-trained trialling dog who, during a trial, tanked off over the horizon after a hare.

We’re always told three things with prey driven dogs: ‘keep it on a lead’, ‘manage it properly’ and ‘don’t get a dog you can’t control’. Keeping it on a lead, as my own experience indicates, is just not enough. It’s not enough because leads get yanked from hands, or break. God knows, I’ve seen enough videos of dogs chasing livestock with their leads flapping behind them. It’s also not enough because some breeds are extremely athletic and need to run, or need off-lead exercise to flex their drives and their mental muscles so they don’t go crazy and wind up bonkers and medicated (I am not, FYI, saying that all bonkers and medicated dogs end up that way due to lack off-lead exercise). As I said before, an enclosed paddock would just not do it for my two - never mind the cost and the travel.

Management fails. The hare was where a hare shouldn’t have been; my grip on the longline wasn’t as good as I thought it was. You turn a corner, with the sheep safely the other side of what looks like good solid stock fencing, and there are two sheep and a lamb, out in the middle of the track. You walk through the local park and a muntjac literally jumps over your dog. That was my local park. There is literally nowhere I can walk around here which is definitely free of all rabbits, hares, muntjac, roe, fallow, pheasants, partridges, sheep, horses and cattle.

‘Don’t get a dog you can’t control’ is sensible advice, until you get one you thought you had under control and find that some things (hares) tip her over the edge, or you get one (like my younger dog) who has much more predatory drive (and game-finding ability) than you ever anticipated.

I can now control properly my dogs. They have huge amount of freedom. We have a great relationship. I love walking them. I know three other local dog-walkers who also use e-collars, two of them with rescue dogs, whose relationships with their dogs have been transformed by e-collars: ‘I can let him off more, and he’s happier.’ ‘She’s off-lead more, because she comes back and I am so much more relaxed, and so is she because I’m not stressing at her.’ ‘I honestly, when he broke my finger when he yanked on the longline that time, I thought, I’ve just had enough, I can't cope. But now…! Look at him! Good boy!’ I paraphrase, but you get the idea. All of us went to e-collar trainers: we didn’t just slap the collar on the dog, we habituated them and found their working level.

I resent being told that +R is everything (and made to feel inadequate) by people who, it turns out, have to keep their dogs on-lead or minutely manage where they walk them because they cannot be off-lead safely around wildlife and livestock. I also resent having the science thrown at me, when so much of the science is poorly designed (see my earlier comments) or inherently weak (based on surveys; extrapolates sub-populations over the whole canine population; tiny samples - there was a paper recently on +R for resource guarding, referenced by Zak George with a sample of FIVE of which two were lost to follow up). I may be ‘some random on the internet’ but Jo-Rosie Haffenden is not. You can ignore what she has to say (and she’s not the only one saying it) and believe the science if you want, but I read the science very critically, and will continue to do so.

If you can train your high-drive dog 100% +R to do everything it needs to do, to never chase, to never follow a scent and not recall, then fantastic, well done. And I hope you never get a dog you can't control.

I could go on, but this is crazy long.

Typos:

IMO there isn't a right or wrong way to train dogs, as long as the training is effective and works for you and your dog.

My own personal experience is that e-collars have a place in training dogs who would otherwise be in danger and have a poor quality of life without the effective use of one. I have commented on other threads under a different username and have been torn to shreds for sharing our experience of using one on our dog however it genuinely changed the dogs life.

Also, giving a 2 year old collie a room to play with a ball in is just shitty and failing to address the real issues at play.

I can’t believe people are using how an e collar felt on themselves to conflate how it would feel to a dog 🫤. Dogs senses are not the same as people senses

The idea that only challenging or difficult dogs are the ones that have ecollars used on them is one I would know is incorrect. Videos on social showing shock collar being used on deaf dogs, dogs showing stress signals.

It is an excuse.

The choice is not ecollar or danger - there are alternatives.

The fallout from e collars is just dismissed as either being with a poor trainer or the dogs fault. It is not recognised as a major issue with aversive training.

People say they have seen many positive trainers who failed and only the e collar worked.

I can say I regularly see clients of an ecollar trainer( who have seen a very popular and well known e collar trainer - high profile on social) who have major anxiety issues, also dogs killed when using the collar.

This is an argument that will not have a conclusion on a thread as people inflicting pain on their dogs seem to need to justify how it doesnt hurt. That alone shows they know pain is a poor training method but manage to persuade themselves it is fine

There is a reason that shock collars have been banned in many European countries, parts of Canada, parts of Australia,etc. They should be banned everywhere IMO. People can try to justify their use all they like, but the reality is that they “work” because they cause pain, fear, and anxiety.

@Superstoria I'm sorry but nobody is going to convince me that any dog on this planet needs to be shocked with a collar in order to behave.

Maybe you know more than us, but in this screenshot, I don't see how force-free training is responsible. Looks like it's more the lack of training, rather than the method.

Also, if the dog is reactive or anxious or fearful or whatever, R+ training is just one thing in the toolkit, but not the only one. That's why we're talking about management and setting up the dog for success.
Management is key to put the dog in the conditions whereby the good behaviours can be rewarded and reinforced, and undesirable behaviours avoided altogether.
Management is also, as Newpeep mentionned (apologies if it's someone else) picking the right breed for you and your dog.
If someone chooses to have a BC and don't put the effort in training, it's not a problem of method.

One last thing: training takes a lot of time and doesn't follow a straight line. How many people give up just because they don't see progress in a certain period of time, and decide that the dog is untrainable?

I wonder this as well OP. There's so much contradictory advice out there.

We have an 8 month old puppy. I've been trying to train her following the Dogs Trust and Guide Dogs advice since we brought her home at 8 and a half weeks. We did the Dogs Trust online training school and I also paid a local dog behaviourist to come for a visit when she was about 12 weeks.. some of his advice completely contradicted the Dogs Trust advice and seemed very harsh to me.. but I've since found out he's the local SSPCA officer! (Which must be why he looked amused when I expressed that I was worried my neighbours would think I was being cruel to pup if I left her to cry in her crate for mouthing, as he was advising).

I'm worried I'm not managing to train her well. My ex-MIL travelled to visit us last month and pupster was a menace while she was here, jumping and mouthing much more than usual, not listening to me etc. 😳 ex-MIL commented that "someone like <her son or husband> would shout at the dog for doing that and get her behaving." I explained that I've been trying to follow the Dogs Trust advice and it's all encouragement, praise and reward based, to which she replied "well it's obviously not working is it." She might have a point.

I'm not sure how well trained pup should be by this age and I am worried maybe I'm doing a shit job of it. Folk are sooo critical of people whose dogs aren't well trained as well and as with so many other things, people assume that if we haven't managed it, we must be lazy selfish arseholes who didn't bother to try.. so there's huge pressure to get it right.

My pup's a patterdale x cocker spaniel. Any training advice? 🤞x

I definitely feel judgement whenever my little dog sharls or barks at people. He does it rarely, but I think about the recent thread here about how badly behaved small dogs here and I feel bad. I figure they assume I'm an irresponsible owner who bought a handbag dog and babies it without doing any training.