Dog breeders - what to look out for

[tiredofthisshit21]

Going to see a large family run breeder next weekend, has been recommended to us by a friend. We're looking to get a Cavachon puppy. First time dog owners and a bit clueless. Thought I'd ask you experts on here what we should be looking out for? We've been thinking about this for months and it's not a snap decision. Fully aware of the commitment etc. But any advice would be appreciated.

[quote tiredofthisshit21]@PotatoPie888 if rescue centres are buckling under the sheer volume of dogs which need rehoming, why is it that most dogs advertised get multiple applications and it's so competitive to even try and rehome a rescue?[/quote]
The main issue here is the multiple applications and huge volumes and competitiveness is for the desirable breeds, the puppies, and the "easy" dogs. They are rehomed quick as a flash.

The dogs that are building up and causing stress for rescues are the ones that are handed over for behavioural or medical reasons - and I was say that this is an issue for the majority of dogs in rescue. These are the ones that need specific homes that aren't as common - no kids, no visiting kids, no other pets, experienced owners who know how to deal with anxious, reactive or dogs with resource guarding issues.

It's an immense strain on rescue resources, often for younger dogs because someone has bought a puppy with no experience of training and ballsed it up. Now the pup has hit teen phase and is a wild animal.

OK I can see how that might be the case @bunnygeek. But the types of dogs they are struggling to rehome are (realistically) no good to a first time owner such as myself. That's the issue.

Some good advice here.
On the insurance point I would add, insurance covers a number of things beyond medical treatment, such as covering the cost of your pet in case of death, and helping to get them back if stolen. Because of this purebred dogs insurance can often be higher, so I wouldn’t take a lower premium of a cross breed as an indication of better health.
For me regardless of breed I would be looking for health checks for the parents, council licenses and to see where mum and pups are kept.
A good place to start asking about breeders is your local vet, local dog trainers and breed groups. If you contact some local dog trainers they will often know people in the area, or might be happy to introduce you to the owners of dogs similar to what you are looking for for you to meet their dogs, and pass on the breeder details.
If you choose to go for a purebred dog you can also go to some of their shows and events and start speaking with people.
Personally I would always go for a purebred dog, as you know what you are getting, and what the potential health concerns are and how to mitigate them- eg. If a Dalmatian is predisposed to be blind I would say you do the genetic testing to make sure the parents are clear, to make sure the pups are ok, rather than breeding with a different breed to reduce the risk.
There are some good rescues out there, both breed specific and general. But for me it isn’t a shortcut to getting a dog, they can require a lot of work and dedication.
Always go with your gut, and be prepared to walk away. A dog can be part of your family for 15 years, so you want to make sure you get it right.

@tabulahrasa
The problem with any of those studies though... is that when people say crosses are healthier than pedigrees they don’t mean pedigrees of any breed, they mean of the two breeds that have been crossed.
Well, yes, sometimes this is what they do mean. But so much depends on the pedigree dogs in question.

Cockerpoos are the crossbred of the moment. Cockers and poodles, apart from PRA, tend to have different health issues. It is either not usual or not possible to test for the likelihood of parent dogs passing these on to their offspring, but since these illnesses are more common in some breeds than others, it's likely that they are due to genetics. For example, there was a poster on this board just recently whose young cocker had a sudden leg fracture to a joint issue that is largely confined to spaniels, so is almost certainly genetic, but which cannot be tested for.

So, yes, a cocker puppy from health-tested parents who are clear of PRA won't develop PRA, whereas a cockerpoo puppy from untested parents might - but the purebred cocker puppy's parents won't have been tested for a suit of diseases to which poodles are not prone. This means that the our notional cocker puppy remains susceptible to all of these illnesses - but it's unlikely that they'll crop up in the cockerpoo. (Obviously if you start back-crossing your cockerpoos things will start to look a bit different.)

As @CovoidOfAllHumanity says, we know the risks of consanguinity, and these risk are the same in dogs. A low COI based on known pedigree is no guarantee that the COI would remain low if the pedigree went back another five or ten generation - and recent DNA research has shown that many breeds are seriously inbred, much more so than current breed COI stats, based on recorded info, would indicate.

Closed studbooks are a blight in the longer term. We'll destroy purebred dogs eventually if we don't allow some outcrossing to bring in new genetics, and that would be a terrible loss.

Have you looked at an Australian Labradoodle or Australian Service Dog? These always tend to get lumped together with the straight cross of lab/poodle and the whole straight crossbreed/cockerpoo/cavapoo bandwagon but they are actually quite different. But it is very difficult to find a decent breeder. There is a section of breeders that demand the early spaying of their bitches which I completely disagree with - and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole! But there are good group of breeders out there who import their stud dogs and who are breeding for the love of the dogs and to improve and create a 'breed' standard. Yes they are are a cross breed but they are a bit like Jack Russell's were a while back. Not recognised by the KC but effectively breeding true to a standard now.

They are great family dogs. Nothing like as high energy as a cockerpoo or a straight cross labradoodle. Smart enough to do agility. Relaxed enough to spend a day on the sofa if it is raining. They aren't cheap but no puppy is these days.

I've always thought it is a shame that the proliferation of random crosses has put these dogs in the shade. The actual dogs make brilliant family and service dogs.

I know that Wally Conron said that it was his life's regret creating them, but he was talking about the fact that puppy farms jumped on the bandwagon and started breeding random crosses for money rather than with any care for health concerns or disposition. His original intention was to create a biddable, intelligent, low maintenance, non-shedding dog. And that's what they are.

@Isithalftermyet

Have you looked at an Australian Labradoodle or Australian Service Dog? These always tend to get lumped together with the straight cross of lab/poodle and the whole straight crossbreed/cockerpoo/cavapoo bandwagon but they are actually quite different. But it is very difficult to find a decent breeder. There is a section of breeders that demand the early spaying of their bitches which I completely disagree with - and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole! But there are good group of breeders out there who import their stud dogs and who are breeding for the love of the dogs and to improve and create a 'breed' standard. Yes they are are a cross breed but they are a bit like Jack Russell's were a while back. Not recognised by the KC but effectively breeding true to a standard now.

They are great family dogs. Nothing like as high energy as a cockerpoo or a straight cross labradoodle. Smart enough to do agility. Relaxed enough to spend a day on the sofa if it is raining. They aren't cheap but no puppy is these days.

I've always thought it is a shame that the proliferation of random crosses has put these dogs in the shade. The actual dogs make brilliant family and service dogs.

I know that Wally Conron said that it was his life's regret creating them, but he was talking about the fact that puppy farms jumped on the bandwagon and started breeding random crosses for money rather than with any care for health concerns or disposition. His original intention was to create a biddable, intelligent, low maintenance, non-shedding dog. And that's what they are.

I hadn't.... Just taken a look and to be honest they look a little bigger than the type of dog I was considering. They look a lovely breed though.

Or do you mean an Aussiedoodle?

Ah, there are different sizes. Hmmm. One to think about.

Please note that because of Covid many breeders are not meeting prospective buyers before the puppies are due to leave at eight weeks. I haven't met the breeder of a puppy I have paid for and am collecting in a few days. But we have spoken extensively on the 'phone, regular emails, I did my due diligence on the internet and I get almost daily videos and photos. I used Champdogs and filtered on DNA testing and other tests for the breed.

@Spanielsarepainless

Please note that because of Covid many breeders are not meeting prospective buyers before the puppies are due to leave at eight weeks. I haven't met the breeder of a puppy I have paid for and am collecting in a few days. But we have spoken extensively on the 'phone, regular emails, I did my due diligence on the internet and I get almost daily videos and photos. I used Champdogs and filtered on DNA testing and other tests for the breed.

Wow, that would put me off I'm afraid. I'd want to see the dogs in their surroundings. I don't think that Covid can be used as an excuse forever.

@tiredofthisshit21

So our preference is for a small, chilled out, easy to train, non-shedding dog. Cockapoos are a bit too big. Really not fussed about breed as long as he/she ticks those boxes.

You would be very very lucky to get a small easy to train dog.Most small dogs (toy dogs) are difficult to train.Be prepared to have a forever barking dog,health issues and lots of grooming.all toy dogs are overbred and have one or the other issue.jack russell is as small as I would get.

I didn't say you size....jack russel size would be fine.

*toy size, damn auto correct.

a small, chilled out, easy to train, non-shedding dog

You might try a Tibetan Terrier. It's not actually a terrier, so a bit less (ahem) feisty, and is supposedly hypoallergenic. Size similar to a Cavalier, maybe a bit bigger.

Family friends had one as a companion/assistance dog for their wheelchair-bound child. He was utterly adorable, happy to trot alongside or be cuddled on a lap, very responsive and obedient (I suspect that someone else had put in the hard work of getting him to that stage first, though).

Most breeders are still meeting people and conducting puppy visits. Even if it’s just one and then photos and videos. I’d be deeply suspicious of any breeder who told you you couldn’t visit because of Covid, it’s a puppy farm classic.
I can’t imagine any decent breeder wouldn’t want to meet you as well.

Make sure you see pictures of the dogs. See if you can actually visit the place however as well. Obtain the breeder contact details too as well. Consider the personality of the dog in question. Discuss puppy training requirements and the best diet etc.

Buy the required supplies in advance and also get a pet insurance plan in place on top of that. Lily's Kitchen is a great brand for treats. I recommend also keeping a folder on your pet, with the information in one place in your bedroom or in a drawer. No puppy is cheap, bear that in mind as you are in the process of buying one.

A maltipoo is non shedding.

We are on a waiting list for a puppy that hasn't yet been conceived. The only difference from normal due to covid is that our breeder doesn't want to see us until they have confirmed that there are actually pups on the way. No way would they not want to meet us at all! They are super careful about where they are homed so I agree that not being allowed to meet the breeder until you collect the puppy would now be a red flag.

Tibetan terriers are about the size of a cocker spaniel, they can suffer from separation anxiety and they can be exceptionally stubborn. You can train them to do something but they are bred to be independent thinkers so they might not see the point in what you're asking them to do. They are great fun, but biddable they are not. They don't shed though so that's one off your list.

Thanks, RedMozzie, it's possible that the one I knew was both unusually small and unusually well trained!

He was utterly lovely though.

@Stellaris22

I also believe that 'reputable' breeders need to advertise on sites like Pets4Homes.

You do need to be vigilant with this site, but decent breeders need to accept there's a reason most people look here first. It's well known and hiding your head in the sand and saying 'go to shows and talk to breeders, because good ones don't advertise' is doing nothing to help.

We got a very good dog off P4H. The breeder didn't do everything some Doghouse posters would want to see, but he bred with a close eye on avoiding inbreeding, and home-checked his puppy buyers. We saw the litter twice with their dam, and he was very informative about the sire.

You need to do your due diligence.

And all the people saying 'good breeders never advertise'. Oh, they do. I've seen some outstanding litters on Champdogs. I've seen breeders I wouldn't touch with a bargepole on there too, and better ones on P4H.

We got ours from someone who advertised on P4H as well. We have a breed where I don't view the KC show version to be healthy and certainly wouldn't be able to do the job it's originally bred to do.

If I were you I would decide on the breed you want, then contact the breeders registered either on KC site or champ dogs. As what litters are coming up. Ask lots of questions about health screening and temperament of their dogs. Don’t buy a pet dog from anyone breeding from dogs who live in kennels. They need to be in the breeders home.

Then look at breed specific Facebook pages or local area clubs to get a sense of who is who and what to look for in that type of dog.

I our case we found a breeder who put us in touch with owners of pups from their previous litters. Invited us to see her home set up and meet the bitch. Asked us LOADS of questions and was willing to answer all ours in detail. She invited us back again after that to meet the DC too.

We had a contract to sign, saw all health checks from dam and sire and we were added to a WhatsApp group of other people with pups from that current litter.

It was easier buying our house actually! But we have the most beautiful dog and a solid little group of other owners support each other as they grow.

Be wary of the listings on the KC litter website. Many of them (for my breed at least) are not health tested or very inadvisable matings. I found one where a dog affected by a recessive condition had been mates to a bitch that wasn't tested so puppies could be similarly affected. Another litter had a coefficient of inbreeding of 26%, against a breed average of 7.9%. KC reg on its own is no guarantee of anything. KC are not very demanding in what they will register.

Interesting that even KC registered is no guarantee! We want a cross breed anyway so KC no good to us. Think we're going to do some research on Pets 4 Homes breeders and use our judgement.

Why a cross? Out of interest? I can understand where crosses are bred for a particular job like a sprocker or lurcher. But what would you get?
KC does only mean pedigree. Not good breeder though.