Dog breeders - what to look out for

[tiredofthisshit21]

Going to see a large family run breeder next weekend, has been recommended to us by a friend. We're looking to get a Cavachon puppy. First time dog owners and a bit clueless. Thought I'd ask you experts on here what we should be looking out for? We've been thinking about this for months and it's not a snap decision. Fully aware of the commitment etc. But any advice would be appreciated.

Many Tears Rescue, rehomes ex puppy farm dogs and often has litters that they've had relinquished along with mum, always look in rescue.

I'm interested to know why though? What's wrong with cross breeds?

Because most breeders of crosses are doing it to make money. They don't health-test, they don't limit the number of litters per dam, they don't care about lines or in-breeding or passing on genetic diseases.

Cross breeds in general are not a problem - I've met some lovely ones, but there's no denying that puppy farms and backyard breeders are a HUGE issue, and unfortunately, these people are smart and are excellent at making people think they're wholesome families who love their dogs. Why would anyone risk buying into and funding the industry that leaves breeding dogs to die when they're no longer of any use? That kills any puppies that aren't cute enough or that are surplus to demand? It really baffles me.

My question to you is this: what does adding a King Charles Cavalier to the mix do that makes the puppies better than if they came from a pure-bred, health-tested bichon frisé?

The easiest way of avoiding puppy farms is to get a rescue or get from a reputable breeder. Good breeders are trying to improve the breed and usually show their dogs.

Choose a breed, contact the kennel club and breed groups. Speak to people. It will be a wait but you'll get a healthy puppy

It's so sad that pleas from rescue organisations aren't getting through to people. I just can't believe anyone nowadays would even consider buying a pup from a dodgy breeder, after all the recent publicity. It's irresponsible and cruel.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with crossbreeds, but you shoul demand the same from their breeders as you should from a pedigree - health testing for the known problems in all breeds that go in to their make up, and that they are bred in excellent conditions from dogs that are healthy, of good temperament and look like their breed.

Unfortunately, most fashionable crosses are bred in unsavoury conditions, bred to excess, often without any health testing at all.

Breeders are also very clever indeed at putting a respectable veneer on their behaviour. Don't be fooled by posh websites. If you come across any kennels that advertise several breeds/crosses, start by asking their council how many breeding bitches they are registered for, you will often be shocked.

All dog buying is difficult these days. For my money, the most accountable way is to find the right breed and then find the right breeder - whether you are interested in showing or not (most aren't, no worries), a show breeder is the most 'accountable' you are likely to find. You can track how much they breed, you can evidence health testing, you can be reasonably sure that if they are successful their dogs have decent temperaments or they'd be unlikely to do well in the show ring.

Obviously there are exceptions to all of these, life's like that. However, the only way I would touch a crossbreed with a bargepole would be if I had a very close link to a breeder who health-tested, and who you know is telling the truth on number of dogs/litters.

There is everything wrong with cross breeding. Breeding animals should only be done to maintain or improve the breed. Random cross breeding does neither.

@Freysimo

It's so sad that pleas from rescue organisations aren't getting through to people. I just can't believe anyone nowadays would even consider buying a pup from a dodgy breeder, after all the recent publicity. It's irresponsible and cruel.

(Not directed at you specifically, OP - I am constantly amazed by people I know who buy from them with no thought of what they're supporting. People just seem to want a cute pup and want it quickly.)

It is mad, isn't it? So much publicity of the horrors that exist in puppy farms, here and abroad, and yet still so many otherwise sensible people keep the industry churning.

If there is no care for the poor bitches (and studs) stuck producing pups, often in dreadful conditions, you would think people would listen to the very many reports of sick or dying pups.

Many Tears is well worth a look actually, in their descriptions of the dogs that they take on, as a good indicator of the lives these poor souls have lived. The ones that rescues take are the lucky ones, many others are just disposed of when they can no longer produce 'stock' to sell.

I am in no way defending puppy farming - random cross-breeding to produce fashionable types of dogs..

But it is completely wrong to say that cross breeding doesn’t produce healthier dogs that are less likely to suffer from genetic diseases.

I’m simplifying here, but pedigree dogs generally have health problems when they inherit a defective recessive allele from both parents. These defective variants of the gene only persist because supposedly responsible Kennel Club breeders are only breeding towards a random “breed standard” based largely on appearance. And to achieve this, dogs that are too closely related are mated. The annual TV commentary at Crufts is such nonsense, it’s appalling to anyone with any knowledge of animal breeding.

The exceptions are dogs that are still bred for the physical ability to do a job, rather than meeting some arbitrary human judgement on what looks cute.

What to look out for : Health testing on all breeding dogs. Breeding dogs selected for health and temperament. A puppy socialisation programme. A waitlist which requires extensive questioning of you to make sure you are a suitable owner to join.
A contract which says the pup goes back to the breeder at any point in their life if there ever comes a time you can't look after him/her. Willing to put you in touch with current owners so you can chat to and possibly meet their dogs. Ability to discuss their dogs lines and explain the reasoning behind mating selections.
KC means nothing if they don't also do all of the above.

To be fair though you can have three or four dogs and be breeding them without being a 'puppy farm'. It's not socially responsible of course but I suspect it's a lot more common than massive puppy farms. And perfectly possible for them to be producing more than one type of puppy. And for those puppies to have come from a loving home.

@SoThisisMe

What to look out for : Health testing on all breeding dogs. Breeding dogs selected for health and temperament. A puppy socialisation programme. A waitlist which requires extensive questioning of you to make sure you are a suitable owner to join. A contract which says the pup goes back to the breeder at any point in their life if there ever comes a time you can't look after him/her. Willing to put you in touch with current owners so you can chat to and possibly meet their dogs. Ability to discuss their dogs lines and explain the reasoning behind mating selections. KC means nothing if they don't also do all of the above.

All of this 100%

Adopt don't shop.

Wow. Thanks for all of the advice. A lot to think about. Currently looking for Bichon Frise or Maltese breeders. I can't believe how much there is to think about. In no way do I want to support anything which is unethical or cruel.

OP don't let anyone make you feel guilty for buying a puppy. Rescue isn't right for everyone. Finding a good breeder is the important thing. If all breeders did what my breeder does (all of the things I mentioned) then we'd have no need for dogs homes.

What @FlemishHorse said.

I'd add, there's not a great deal of point testing for recessive issues that only crop up in one of the breeds in the cross, unless you plan on breeding the puppies on and want to know that they are clear by descent.

As PP have said, cross-breeding itself isn't the issue: there are a lot of thoughfully-bred crosses and more complex mixes out there (eurohounds, for example, and various gamekeeper's dogs). These are dogs being bred with a working purpose in mind, and health and conformation matter to their breeders.

The issue is the people who don't give the parent dogs the things they need in terms of care, attention, stimulation and exercise. It used to be that council licences were a red flag for bulk breeders churning out litters, but the rules have changed and that doesn't work any longer.

One thing I would ask to do is FB friend any breeder you're thinking about. That will give you at least some idea of the lives the dogs are living.

Contact breed clubs. I found the breeder of my rough collie at a dog show. Make sure the parents have had any appropriate health tests for the breed (e.g. dna tests, hip scores).

(Slight hijack sorry op but am in a similar boat)

What I don’t quite get is puppy farms and respectable breeders are opposite ends of a spectrum surely?

There must be some families somewhere in the middle who’ve decided to breed their dog and perhaps haven’t quite got sorted all the various health checks but are providing loving homes for their dogs and while yes they’re making a bit of money from the puppies it doesn’t necessarily make them unethical or a “puppy farm”?

I don’t necessarily want a fine show quality pedigree. I just want to know who mum and dad are, that both have been well cared for and healthy dogs and am aware that crossbreeds are less likely to have health issues. Very difficult to know how to legitimately purchase a mongrel puppy.

@Frazzled2207 completely agree. There must be a halfway house somewhere. I don't want a show quality pedigree. But I don't want a farmed puppy either.

Exactly pp. I think it's a bit fussy to want forms and guarantees galore. All dogs can get sick, theres no guarantee of anything. I'd rather pay 200 quid for a mutt that has a happy, healthy looking mum and appears to have a nice temperament than spend ten times that for a few bits of paper telling me 'it'll probably be fine'. Loada poncey bs. Just pick a bread that generally has less health issues and invest in some puppy training.

*breed

@Frazzled2207. I completely agree - it’s hard to find responsibly bred dogs, I think the problem is that demand these days is so much greater than supply.

I bred a litter of pups from my Jack Russell terrier about 30 years ago, when JRTs were sniffed at by the Kennel club as a “type” - not a breed.
Mum came from a Yorkshire farm and the sire belonged to my farrier, and the stud fee was a (good) bottle of whisky. It was a lot of work, a lot of fun too, and I can’t remember how much I charged for the puppies - it was the going rate at the time and to be honest I don’t think it even covered the cost. Who has the time or knowledge these days to breed a good litter of pups just for the pleasure of it?

@FlemishHorse

Good points. Perhaps it’s a case of the hassle isn’t worth it unless you can make a LOT of money out of it. And that broadly means unscrupulous breeders plus serious breeders that have been doing it for years and know what they are doing, but very little in between.

Anything that isn't KC registered tends to be dismissed as 'backyard breeders'.

Personally I think this is silly. There's a place for people responsibly breeding family pets as most people don't want a pedigree, show dog. But equally want a healthy pet that's been responsibly bred.

@Frazzled2207

(Slight hijack sorry op but am in a similar boat)

What I don’t quite get is puppy farms and respectable breeders are opposite ends of a spectrum surely?

There must be some families somewhere in the middle who’ve decided to breed their dog and perhaps haven’t quite got sorted all the various health checks but are providing loving homes for their dogs and while yes they’re making a bit of money from the puppies it doesn’t necessarily make them unethical or a “puppy farm”?

I don’t necessarily want a fine show quality pedigree. I just want to know who mum and dad are, that both have been well cared for and healthy dogs and am aware that crossbreeds are less likely to have health issues. Very difficult to know how to legitimately purchase a mongrel puppy.

The health tests are the most important bit!!!!!!!

Puppy farmers are selling puppies out of air bnbs, pretending that they are ‘loving homes.’