Dog breeders - what to look out for

[tiredofthisshit21]

Going to see a large family run breeder next weekend, has been recommended to us by a friend. We're looking to get a Cavachon puppy. First time dog owners and a bit clueless. Thought I'd ask you experts on here what we should be looking out for? We've been thinking about this for months and it's not a snap decision. Fully aware of the commitment etc. But any advice would be appreciated.

Head is seriously spinning with all of this. Did not realise it was such a minefield.

I suggest contacting the official club for the breed and asking them to suggest breeders who show and breed their dogs. Showing is what establishes whether a dog is good enough quality or not, I would only buy a puppy with show winning parents. The parents should also have had genetic testing to ensure the puppies will be healthy. If the breeder is making a profit then they’re not doing it properly.

@Alayalaya

I suggest contacting the official club for the breed and asking them to suggest breeders who show and breed their dogs. Showing is what establishes whether a dog is good enough quality or not, I would only buy a puppy with show winning parents. The parents should also have had genetic testing to ensure the puppies will be healthy. If the breeder is making a profit then they’re not doing it properly.

If they’re not going to make a small profit why would they even bother? From what I gather it’s a heck of a lot of hassle to responsibly breed dogs

But I'd prefer a crossbreed! There seems to be no way to find out who is an ethical breeder unless you go for a pedigree.

The only ethical way to get a crossbreed is to rescue unfortunately. Unless it's a cross bred for specific purpose i.e. working dogs. There's no guarantee of a crossbreed being healthier than a show dog due to genetics - in fact these days they're more likely to be unhealthy due to being from unhealthy unhealth tested parents.

I've even seen people selling litters online where they've said one of the parents was a stray or rescue dog with entirely unknown parentage - and the breeding was intentional. Urgh!

If you want a crossbreed puppy - contact rescues. As others say, they do get puppies. And a good rescue will offer you a lifetime of behavioural support and advice. I know of one rescue in Northern Ireland who had 30 puppies and 3 pregnant bitches signed over before Xmas. I don't think any of those have gone online and all will likely be reserved.

"If they’re not going to make a small profit why would they even bother?"

To keep a puppy and continue their lines, and because showing and improving the breed is their passion. My DGPs did this for many years.

Same goes for the genuine people having a litter from the family pet, and keeping a puppy (and often breeding for temperament first and foremost).

That said, profit is easier at the current pandemic prices, even where it's not the motivation.

My mum breeds Gordon and English setters and looses money.
She does it as she adores the breed, shows and works them, has one litter every 4/5 years, keeps the pick and sells the rest to working or showing homes (depending on the pup).
She’d not sell to someone who had seen one on a walk and looks pretty, she’d expect someone enquiring about her wait list to have carried out research about the breed and be willing to come and meet mum/the pups 2/3 times before taking one home.

They do it without making a profit because it’s a hobby and they love the breed, and they love going to shows and showing their award winning dogs. Breeding properly is super expensive, they barely cover their costs. I wouldn’t buy a puppy from someone who was making a profit.

If you have a specific breed in mind, sometimes they have breed specific rescues, always worth a look into.
I'd love a dog, any small/ medium size dog but so rarely are they suitable to be with cats (we have two) have put myself on rescue lists for cat tested dogs, I imagine it'll be years if I ever hear.
Buying a puppy would be an easier option but am far too worried of buying a sick/puppy farmed one, plus not enough $$ always seem to be priced so high too

I honestly don't think crossbreeds bred for the latest fashion is ever ethical. If you want a cross then a rescue. That wasn't for me either so I spent years going to dog shows and awkwardly introducing myself to handlers showing the breed I was interested in and finding a reputable breeder who breeds to further the lines. Better the breed. Better the health.

I really will never understand the want for cavashons, cockapoos and the like. Get a well bred Bichon or poodle. They can be left in a teddy bear like trim if it's the aesthetics that's drawing you to them. If it's the traits and personalities, you're likely to get more of a guarantee with a well bred pedigree pup.

The crosses are bred for people who, respectfully, like yourself see their friends with a cute puppy and want one. You've had some really good advise here.

Showing is what establishes whether a dog is good enough quality or not, I would only buy a puppy with show winning parents.

Depends on the breed — I'm no expert but I do enjoy watching Crufts and lots of family members have dogs. Some breeds have become incredibly over-exaggerated recently, and it isn't good for them — pugs are the obvious example.

Judging is subjective, and there are fashions in it (like everything else!).

You do want an experienced breeder.

You do want a breeder that health tests and uses a heath tested sire. I disgaree that it takes year to find the right sire. Dog people move in dog circle and they know the sire background from generations.

There is so much more to breeding than just health tests behaviourally wise all the major development stages are done in pregnancy and in the first 8 weeks of life . It is vital you have a breeder that knows what they ae doing in this critical time.

It is easier to get a pedigree as it is extremely to research the breeder from their breeding affix usually back several generations. Speak to breed clubs, speak and ask questions on breed facebook pages, research the breed and the same name will come up again and again. Speak to them and ask about their litters or litters that they recommend. Ask to speak to people who have had a litter from them previously, speak to the sires owner. Dog people love to talk about their dogs.

Cross breeds it an be done but is so much harder. Not all cross breeds but many crossbreed owners are not as clued up and do breed to make money rather then improving the breed. So issues will ocur.

Rescue dogs - the idea that a puppy is a clean slate and a rescue dog has issues is incorrect. At least with the rescue dog you can see before you buy and you know what the dog is like - with a puppy as I have said already the slate has been well and truly drawn on by the time you take your puppy home at 8 weeks and you will have no idea!

Howver rescues could have orginated from puppy farms and you will have little idea but then that is the same as buying off gumtree.

In short a good breeder will have a massive trail (easily found on the internet or from the breed club) that you can follow to get some indication of the way they breed, the dogs they produce and their general ethics to dog breeding. If you cant find a good trail walk away

extremely to research = extremely easy to research

As I said above, I do not have any issue with any dog that is bred responsibly - my issue for those looking to buy the fashionable crossbreeds is that responsibly bred ones are few and far between, and very hard to identify reliably.

Showing is not entirely 'by the by' when you decide you want a particular breed as a pet. Showing looks at the finer points of the individual dog, but good breeding fundamentally produces a litter of puppies that are recognisably of their breed.

Buy a dog of any breed from a good breeder who maintains show type, and you are reasonably sure (although Mother Nature can always have the last laugh) that it will largely be of the temperament, size, coat care requirements and appearance you would expect of its breed.

Add breed-prescribed health tests to that, and you will have as much assurance as you ever can with living creatures that you will get a healthy dog as a basis for you to train and mould.

Many dogs bred by pet breeders bear little resemblance to their breed in temperament, appearance or size, and you really might as well go and get a rescue.

Re posts about showing - breeders may breed to show their dogs but many puppies in the litter do not meet the show standard - these dogs are happily sold to a good "pet" home by the breeders.

Personally I never have show dogs but will have working dogs and the same in my post above applies to them they may be pedigree but they are not bred to be show dogs but bred to work.

Not all pedigree dogs are show dogs

@tiredofthisshit21

But I'd prefer a crossbreed! There seems to be no way to find out who is an ethical breeder unless you go for a pedigree.

i'm sadly coming to this conclusion OP.

I am going to do some research because I am adamant there must be some ethical crossbreeders somewhere. Completely take on board that they can be very difficult to spot though and that puppy farmers are very good at making themselves look like family homes. I am taking from this thread that 'word of mouth' is probably going to be best overall, even though you apparently heard of a breeder which is possibly/probably unethical by this means. As a child the family (mongrel) dogs came from friends friends who had a litter from a family pet. Definitely no certificates or microchips or even insurance back then. Dogs had happy and healthy lives.

Some breeds have become incredibly over-exaggerated recently, and it isn't good for them — pugs are the obvious example.

Could not agree more, but still people seem to blindly buy them from anyone selling.

Just this week I have seen a young Pug who didn't appear able to keep his tongue in his mouth, and a young Frenchie who has just cost their owner £7k for a back operation (and only that low as their daughter worked in a vet).

Frenchie owner had no insurance, they 'didn't realise the breed had health issues' ... how on earth can you so so little research on buying a dog for Frenchie health problems to be a surprise to you?!

Good luck @Frazzled2207 - do let me know how you get on.

There are some ethical cross breeds. There is an amazing cocker poo breeder in Norfolk for example Use to breed spaniels but saw people wanted cocker poos and wanted to ensure that the breed had healthy happy dogs.

All dogs are health tested
All puppies have the most amazing socialisation and leave toilet trained, crate trained (if required) and happy to be left for short periods at 8 weeks old.
All puppies are used to car travel, cats and children.

She offers free training sessions for each new owner by zoom or in person for the first 8 weeks after the puppy has gone to the new home.

It almosts makes me want a cockerpoo!

However due to this you would have to wait a long time to get one of her puppies.

However by researching it is possible to find these dogs. If you ask people and they can give you no history to their dog do not use that breeder

@Auntieobem

I dont believe that families who decide to breed their pets are a half way house - there's no good reason to breed a family pet.

I agree with this. I’ve seen lots of litters this year -all “accidental matings” between dogs in the same house. The quality of the parents have generally been poor, the puppies will undoubtably have health issues. They are advertised as health checked - doesn’t say what the health check showed up. Funnily enough I can’t remember the last accidental mating I saw before the puppy prices shot through the roof.

@PollyRoulllson

That’s reassuring to hear. I am in no rush so going to do a lot more research.
Also approach rescues (we have kids so this is going to be a harder route for us)

Interesting and upsetting article about puppy farming on countryfile on bbc1 now.

For interest, @PollyRoulllson, how many breeding bitches are they licensed for? (I will be pleased if their motives are so pure and they aren't licensed for many.)

I have a pure breed that is more of a working line (hound) than show. I would never buy the show line of this breed because I don't believe they are healthy. A breed should be able to do the job it's originally bred to do, sadly the show versions of many breeds would now struggle. Just look at German Shepherds.

I never see these concerns with cross breeds like lurchers (which I love anyway).

Family breeders can still be ethical and responsible and should t be so readily snubbed.

I was so lucky finding the breeder of my dog. I found her on Champdogs website, only a short drive away. The mum had a litter a few years previously and they wanted to have a puppy from her so bred her again with the same dog and we had one of the second litter. She didn't have any more after this one. A very much loved family pet. The dad was actually owner by another breeder which I had looked at previously but ruled out as they were above our price limit, so I got one of his pups at a much reduced price! Both parents were all health tested with very good scores.
I don't know how we will find another puppy in future.
Anyway, Champdogs is a good place to look for breeders and most are kc registered.

People need to be aware of what a murky world dog breeding is these days. Lots of drug dealers are doing it, because the profits are so huge. They often use it as a way of laundering money. Anybody who pays thousands for a puppy is contributing to this.