Dog breeders - what to look out for

[tiredofthisshit21]

Going to see a large family run breeder next weekend, has been recommended to us by a friend. We're looking to get a Cavachon puppy. First time dog owners and a bit clueless. Thought I'd ask you experts on here what we should be looking out for? We've been thinking about this for months and it's not a snap decision. Fully aware of the commitment etc. But any advice would be appreciated.

[quote PotatoPie888]@liveforsummer. She also was wanting a puppy and was considering buy one from what is clearly a puppy farm. I make no apologies for pointing her in the direction of a reputable rescue who have lots of puppies who need homes. Also, greyhounds are just giant lapdogs.[/quote]
They aren't though - lapdogs fit on your lap. I could never have a dog that size in my small home. Ridiculous to keep pushing your suggestion on someone who wants a small dog and OP changed her mind about the original pup almost immediately once people pointed out the breeders were likely puppy farmers so it's unfair to say she wants the puppy at all costs.

OP might not be what you're after either but the likes of a Jack Russell is far more likely to come from one of the middle ground breeders you mention. Puppy farms aren't interested, they aren't in enough demand as there are plenty of them and they don't fetch a high enough price to be as profitable as the poo breeds or fashionable frenchies etc. Often farmers breeding their pet or working dog. I hadn't considered one initially but when my friend had one left in her litter at just the right time I decided to go for it and it was the best decision I made. Mines a lazy little soul and very much a lap dog. I've got covid and she's been asleep at my feet since Dd took her out at 7.30am. She's risen once to look out the window when the post man came. She does she'd though although not too badly. She's Black's and tan though, probably be worse if she was a typical jrt white. They are also a very hardy breed with few health problems mainly because the gene pool is huge. Another possibility to think about. Like I said I'd never considered one initially but now I'm addicted and want a whole pack 😆. A rescue wasn't for us either it's ok to decide that, I'd never have been approved based on my circumstances anyway- primary aged dc and live in a flat.

@PotatoPie888

It isn’t ranting. Don’t be so reductive in your argument. Puppy farming is a real thing and if pointing that out sends people in ‘the opposite direction’ they are the ones with the problem, not those of us that go hate the practice.

If you search my posts on the Doghouse, you will see that I am very active in pointing out the perils of puppy farming and ways to try and spot it. I am in no way being reductive about it.

That does NOT mean that all puppy breeders are the same. The good breeders are the ones we need to try and keep.

It's also not true that good breeders never have puppies to advertise either - many people on waiting lists buy elsewhere without ever informing the breeder, litters often have the wrong balance of sex/colour for the buyers waiting.

The breeder of my sisters dog - a poo cross by all accounts ended up having puppies to advertise as the birch was scanned in pup with 8 and ended up popping out 15. This was a 1 time litter from a family pet so these breeds do exist outside of puppy farms but not necessarily easy to find

I also believe that 'reputable' breeders need to advertise on sites like Pets4Homes.

You do need to be vigilant with this site, but decent breeders need to accept there's a reason most people look here first. It's well known and hiding your head in the sand and saying 'go to shows and talk to breeders, because good ones don't advertise' is doing nothing to help.

I didn’t keep pushing a rescue. I responded when other posters stated (a) she would only be able to get a particular high energy breed (b) the dogs would be diseased (c) the rescue could be a front for a puppy farm.
With so much scaremongering it’s no surprise that drug dealers and other criminals are posing as loving breeders and charging £4K for puppies and rescue centres are buckling under the sheer volume of dogs they are looking after.

To play devil's advocate then, what are the things to look out for on sites like Pets4Homes? Someone who has multiple ads for different breeds? Anything else?

A friend just bought her puppy from one such ad and suggested to go to the home and go with your gut feel. If anything feels off, walk away. I'm not saying that's the way I'm going to go but I want to be aware of the perils.

@Pinkbonbon

Exactly pp. I think it's a bit fussy to want forms and guarantees galore. All dogs can get sick, theres no guarantee of anything. I'd rather pay 200 quid for a mutt that has a happy, healthy looking mum and appears to have a nice temperament than spend ten times that for a few bits of paper telling me 'it'll probably be fine'. Loada poncey bs. Just pick a bread that generally has less health issues and invest in some puppy training.

I agree with you.

Exactly. Be kind but firm, give it good food, a warm bed and enough exercise and chances are it will turn out to be a wonderful dog.

@PotatoPie888 if rescue centres are buckling under the sheer volume of dogs which need rehoming, why is it that most dogs advertised get multiple applications and it's so competitive to even try and rehome a rescue?

We were on a waiting list for a rescue for 2 years with never any luck, despite no kids, large secure garden, 2 people at home full-time. We weren't considering rescues who bring dogs in from abroad for various reasons some of which have been discussed here.

So we went for a kc registered puppy instead. We found the litter through champdogs (after discounting many who only had partial health tests). The litter was planned as the owners of the dam wanted another part working/part pet dog from their bitch. Both sire and dam fully health tested (DNA tests, hip scores, elbow scores, eye tests). Large litter (10) and uneven split of males and females meant she had to advertise 3 after they were born as didn't have homes lined up. We spoke at 2 weeks, met at 4.5 where we said we'd like a pup and she said she was happy for us to have one and took home at 8. I spoke to quite a few breeders with either one or two pups from litters just born, or with litters imminent, before finding the litter we got our pup from. I was having to use quite a large search radius to find litters we liked the look of. Ended up with a 2.5 hour drive home.

Red flags for me:
Breeders wanting deposits before even meeting you, I expected to pass an interview and meet pups before even thinking about reserving
Breeders talking about time wasters - if people have second thoughts the most responsible thing to do is to back out, a good breeder shouldn't have a problem with this
Breeders who wanted to stay overly involved, i.e. insisted on regular updates and gave the impression that if you deviated from their recommendations, e.g. food choices they wouldn't approve
Breeders who talked about pups being puppy pad trained

I’ve literally just got a rescue. It isn’t that hard. Please stop peddling misinformation as truth. It’s really damaging.

It's hard if you don't fit inside their fixed criteria

Have you looked at Jackapoos? ours is the loveliest dog :)

Thanks @GerbilCurse that's helpful. Just one question though - why would the pups being puppy pad trained be a red flag?

Also how is she peddling mis-information if her experience is that she was on a waiting list for 2 years with no luck??

@Paramummy3 had never heard of a Jackapoo, they look lovely. But surely the same issue in that it's a designer cross-breed which is more likely to be puppy farmed?

It was literally our experience, so not sure where the misinformation is?

Long term it's easier to toilet train if pups are never taught that toileting indoors is acceptable but it's the easier option for the breeder. It might have been a slightly unfair criteria but it seemed to work out well for us.

Our breeder had already started taking pups outside regularly and encouraging them to toilet and we just carried on with this. Pup never had a single accident inside from the day we brought her home.

As I say every time I post, none of this is easy - and many of these rules would strike out decent breeders, but better to rule out a few good ones when avoiding the bad ones.

There will be other stuff too. A degree of gut instinct for sure.

As a minimum, I would want:

Pups that look happy and relaxed in the home environment
Pups that are happy and excited to see people, not hiding/nervous
Pups that are interacting with their mum - worth pointing out that mum will often look a bit scraggy at the time pups leave, major post-puppy moult is entirely natural
Healthy looking puppies - bouncing, bright eyed, clean coats, happy - clean pups and surroundings, not a smelly environment
Proper records of worming (and official documentation for vaccination if relevant)
Evidence of health testing for both parents in the form of KC/BVA results sheets or DNA test letters - often you will just see this for the father, 'better value' to do this for the one dog that you can then use on multiple bitches! Note that 'health checked' is not the same thing as health tested ...
Both adult dogs and puppies to be obviously comfortable with their owners.

I would avoid:

Shy litters - there can often be one quieter pup, but as a whole the litter should give the appearance of being well socialised
Anyone advertising multiple breeds (and even worse, multiple crossbreeds)
No dirty eyes, bums, extended bellies
Any sob stories about lonely last pups, or 'has xx health issue, but all will be fine' - this should be the breeder's issue, not yours.

For any licensed breeder, I would Google them (including postcode and puppies, rather than just name) and I would contact the local council to see how many dogs/breeding bitches they are licensed for.

No breeder should ever ask you for a deposit before they have met you and grilled you on your circumstances, shown you evidence of adult health testing, and not before they know they have a pup of a viable age.

Most of all, do not ever go and visit a pup, be shocked at its environment and condition and pay the scum that have caused it. You may 'save' that one pup, but really what you are doing is rewarding the breeder and consigning the adult dogs and further puppies to the same. Far better to walk away and report to the RSPCA/Trading Standards.

If you are on a waiting list for 2 years there is probably a reason why. I have no doubt you would be a lovely dog owner. Just don’t reject the idea of a rescue immediately. If you visit them, chances are they’ll have a litter. They don’t advertise them.

@GerbilCurse

Long term it's easier to toilet train if pups are never taught that toileting indoors is acceptable but it's the easier option for the breeder. It might have been a slightly unfair criteria but it seemed to work out well for us.

Our breeder had already started taking pups outside regularly and encouraging them to toilet and we just carried on with this. Pup never had a single accident inside from the day we brought her home.

Ah ok, I see. Thanks

Thanks @Whitney168 for taking the time to write such a detailed post. It's really really helpful.

[quote tiredofthisshit21]@Paramummy3 had never heard of a Jackapoo, they look lovely. But surely the same issue in that it's a designer cross-breed which is more likely to be puppy farmed?[/quote]
Far less likely - they aren't a high demand dog and my friend paid less for her jackapoo than I did for my Jack Russell. It's all about the money for puppy farmers and low value pups from small dogs who often have small litters aren't attractive to them

We got our dog who a crossbreed from Gumtree. I was wary but we knew the breeder was experienced and responsible. We saw the mum happy and relaxed at home with her other puppies and could tell she was well cared for. We were given regular photos and health updates until he was ready to leave. So not all breeders on selling sites are going to puppy farms or irresponsible.

OK that's interesting @liveforsummer - thankyou.

Am finding ALL of this advice massively helpful. Who knew that MN would be such a wealth of knowledge on getting a dog. Very glad I posted here.