Dog breeders - what to look out for

[tiredofthisshit21]

Going to see a large family run breeder next weekend, has been recommended to us by a friend. We're looking to get a Cavachon puppy. First time dog owners and a bit clueless. Thought I'd ask you experts on here what we should be looking out for? We've been thinking about this for months and it's not a snap decision. Fully aware of the commitment etc. But any advice would be appreciated.

Who would your local vet be?
It would be worth going to speak to them as well and finding out if they know any local breeders who are trustworthy.

It has become a minefield but we all have a responsibility to try as hard as we can to make the right choice, not just to give us a good chance of finding a happy health pet for our family, but to improve the working of the sector as a whole.

Just to add I got my dog from a local rescue as a puppy - the mum was surrendered to a vet by a 'family' backyard breeder - pregnant with her third litter, she had turned aggressive to her owners, due to bad treatment I have no doubt, so they wanted her euthanised whilst pregnant.
The rescue took her in, part hand-reared the puppies when they arrived as the mum was still very traumatised and was very possessive - they then re-homed all pups and mum.
So on the face of it, a local family just breeding their pets for a litter of lovely crossbreed puppies which was in reality a disaster.
Not for me in the end though, but a LOT of time and money spent on fixing the situation by the vet, the rescue, fosterers and us.

@PotatoPie888

People need to be aware of what a murky world dog breeding is these days. Lots of drug dealers are doing it, because the profits are so huge. They often use it as a way of laundering money. Anybody who pays thousands for a puppy is contributing to this.

In some breeds, I don't disagree with you at all - particularly in the bull breeds and in Frenchies, breeding is very big business indeed - but you are incorrect to say that anybody who pays thousands for a puppy is contributing to this.

There are plenty of good breeders out there, in all sorts of breeds that make far better, easier, healthier family pets than the more Instagrammable breeds/crosses.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find decent breeders in the fashionable breeds, but again they are there.

Pedigrees are the reason dogs need health tested in the first place. They have been bred to have more and more exaggerated features regardless of health. They have created restricted gene pools. That is why insurance costs more for pedigrees than crossbreeds. Insurance companies assess risks thoroughly. They make sure they are always quids in. They don't insure cross breeds and mixed breeds for less than pedigrees because pedigrees are healthier. They do it because pedigrees are more likely to have health problems.

@Frazzled2207

(Slight hijack sorry op but am in a similar boat)

What I don’t quite get is puppy farms and respectable breeders are opposite ends of a spectrum surely?

There must be some families somewhere in the middle who’ve decided to breed their dog and perhaps haven’t quite got sorted all the various health checks but are providing loving homes for their dogs and while yes they’re making a bit of money from the puppies it doesn’t necessarily make them unethical or a “puppy farm”?

I don’t necessarily want a fine show quality pedigree. I just want to know who mum and dad are, that both have been well cared for and healthy dogs and am aware that crossbreeds are less likely to have health issues. Very difficult to know how to legitimately purchase a mongrel puppy.

Ime people like that will sell cheaper than market value to friends and acquaintances

@Bouncer500 raises a really relevant point: the restricted gene pools of pure breeds which predispose the dogs to genetic disease. All you need is an all-star show winning dog who carries a strange recessive disease to become a popular sire. If he fathers a quarter of the puppies born in that breed for a decade, and his progeny and their descendants are preferentially bred as they also win shows, within twenty years you'll be hard pressed to find a dog without that sire in their lines several times over, and that recessive disease will now be a breed speciality that all the responsible breeders test for. This is one reason why I think it's actually good for a breed to have family pets that are bred, as they can help to preserve genetic diversity in a breed because a pet owner isn't going to care that Fluffy hasn't got the fashionable ear-set, or lacks the straight shoulder that provides the strut that judges like. Fluffy is a nice dog, her hip score is decent, the family wants another like her, they think hard about their choice of sire, they find good homes for the puppies. I know people who breed like this, one litter every four years or so.

If you go looking for a pedigree dog, ask about the co-efficient of inbreeding (COI). Ideally you want it to be under 5%. I've seen show dog breedings where the puppies' COI is >20%. A high COI puts a dog at an increased risk of ill-health (a less strong immune system is a likely by-product, as is an increased risk of some genetic screw-up that can't be tested for).

And this is why crosses tend to be healthier than pure-breds. I say this as someone who owns pure-bred dogs.

COI is so easy to find out for a pedigree dog just use kc website.

It is almost impossible to find out on cross breeds though.

Have you any evidence that cross breeds are more healthy - There are no figures on this at all.

@Whitney168

For interest, *@PollyRoulllson*, how many breeding bitches are they licensed for? (I will be pleased if their motives are so pure and they aren't licensed for many.)

I dont understand the question who do you mean?

The only time a "crossbred" could genuinely be called healthier is when they're a genuine strays - of several generations - where being healthy has meant you survive the rough and tough streets, the weak genetics are literally killed off.

Crossing a Poodle with a Spaniel and claiming it to be "healthier" isn't true.

@bunnygeek agreed.

Yes and no re. predisposition to certain conditions, although we are going well away from the point of the OP here.

As ever, I am not 100% supporting dog breeding in any way, I do agree that in many many breeds the situation is poor and exaggeration and in-breeding have made things unethical to produce a lot of the poor puppies that are born.

However, there are still many unexaggerated breeds who routinely live long healthy lives. In addition, there are many breeds who are very hot on DNA testing which ensures that the puppies produced cannot develop the conditions tested for. Hip/elbow scores etc. a bit harder - obviously breeders should test and use the best stock, but environment and rearing can make a huge difference, so not so straightforward.

Obviously this can make puppies more expensive, although this is far from guaranteed. Sometimes from looking at adverts, the highest prices are the ones I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. The public need to get away from thinking that puppies should be immediately available and preferably cheap too, although some seem to see it as a badge of honour to pay shysters a ridiculous price.

It's also easy to look back with rose-tinted glasses to the 'good old days before before breeds became exaggerated'. Not quite so rosy when reflection shows that it was a life of 'survival of the fittest' and culling where issues arose, which would not be thought appropriate these days.

Absolutely no denial that a good number of breeds have been bred to unhealthy levels of exaggeration though, and often these exaggerations seem to be what makes them appealing to many. Again, buyers need to do their research on this, and not just fall for a dog that seems cute for its big eyes/snuffly noises/excess skin/achondroplasia/etc.

You should all let the insurance companies know that pedigrees are healthier than crossbreeds. They seriously don't know and insure crossbreeds for cheaper. They think their data tells them crossbreeds are healthier.

I dont understand the question who do you mean?

@PollyRoulllson, the Norfolk cocker/poodle breeder you mentioned. Would be interesting to see if they genuinely are producing occasional litters to high standards, or if they are licensed for a good number of bitches.

@bunnygeek

The only time a "crossbred" could genuinely be called healthier is when they're a genuine strays - of several generations - where being healthy has meant you survive the rough and tough streets, the weak genetics are literally killed off.

Crossing a Poodle with a Spaniel and claiming it to be "healthier" isn't true.

But that is just incorrect. If they are strays of several generations they could easily be inbreeding and noone would know.

Health tested dogs breed to health tested dogs will always have dogs with less risk of some genetic diseases

I agree crossing a poodle with high risk of HD with another breed with a high risk of HD, the spaniel, will not breed healthier dogs However if both are health tested the risk can be managed or controlled.

It is not knowing the health history that causes the issues.

It is not longer true that cross breeds or mongrels are healthier than some pedigrees

@Bouncer500

You should all let the insurance companies know that pedigrees are healthier than crossbreeds. They seriously don't know and insure crossbreeds for cheaper. They think their data tells them crossbreeds are healthier.

Anecdotally, but time will tell - I wonder if the days of insurance companies charging less for crossbreeds is numbered.

We have seen a few posts lately (specifically around bull breeds, to be fair) where the insurance companies are wanting owners to be very specific around their crossbreeds, and in some cases are refusing to insure them. Where the customer is not honest about the component breeds, there has been talk of insurance being invalid.

We shall see where that goes.

@Whitney168

I dont understand the question who do you mean?

@PollyRoulllson, the Norfolk cocker/poodle breeder you mentioned. Would be interesting to see if they genuinely are producing occasional litters to high standards, or if they are licensed for a good number of bitches.

Oh sorry!

She does have a lot of dogs because she loves them.

She does not breed every year by any means. She does have some stud dogs but they are not breed to her bitches. She does not breed
all her bitches.

She is licensed but there is no legal reason to be as they do not breed three litters a year but thinks licensing is the way to go.

On the point of insurance and the difference in premiums between pedigrees and cross breeds, I happen to work in insurance, although not pet insurance. But what I do know is that insurers charge a premium based on their assessment of the risk which is in turn based on their claims experience. So if they are charging less for cross breeds then they will have good reason.

Most insurers now want you to tell them what kind of crossbreed you've got. Crossing two pedigree breeds doesn't create hybrid vigour.

@tiredofthisshit21 if you look on the website, Galgos del Sol, they have lots of puppies on there. There are some absolute beauties. They rehome them in the UK. Definitely worth checking out.

@PollyRoulllson

COI is so easy to find out for a pedigree dog just use kc website.

It is almost impossible to find out on cross breeds though.

Have you any evidence that cross breeds are more healthy - There are no figures on this at all.

Here: www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data If you track down the actual paper this article is based on, it states, "Genetic disorders differed in expression. No differences in expression of 13 genetic disorders were detected between purebred dogs and mixed-breed dogs (ie, hip dysplasia, hypo- and hyperadrenocorticism, cancers, lens luxation, and patellar luxation). Purebred dogs were more likely to have 10 genetic disorders, including dilated cardiomyopathy, elbow dysplasia, cataracts, and hypothyroidism. Mixed-breed dogs had a greater probability of ruptured cranial cruciate ligament."

And here:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090023313004486
"The results of multivariable modelling indicated that longevity in crossbred dogs exceeded purebred dogs by 1.2 years (95% confidence interval 0.9–1.4; P < 0.001) and that increasing bodyweight was negatively correlated with longevity. The current findings highlight major breed differences for longevity and support the concept of hybrid vigour in dogs."

And also here:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0090501
"The study identified some evidence that purebred dogs had higher disorder prevalence compared with crossbred dogs. Substantial variation was shown across breeds in their prevalence of common disorders." - a less clear conclusion than the previous papers regarding the relative health of purebred vs crossbred dogs, but nonetheless heading in the same direction.

If you understand genetics, it's obvious: if you limit a gene pool, the deleterious recessive genes that an animal will inevitably carry will have more chance of meeting other copies of that same genetic issue and expressing in the offspring (i.e. causing disease). This is before you look at the impact of inbreeding on the immune system, or the problems caused by extreme morphology (squashed faces, over-long backs etc).

And obviously, this is true of dog populations on average. There will be purebred dogs who are spectacularly healthy (the purebred I grew up with lived to be 16 or 17), even entire breeds with better health and longevity than some crossbred varieties (I'd rather own a well-bred gundog of almost any breed than a pug x frenchie).

But nonetheless, it's pretty clear that in general crossbred dogs live longer and enjoy better health than purebred dogs.

And again, I say this as someone who has purebred dogs.

The problem with any of those studies though... is that when people say crosses are healthier than pedigrees they don’t mean pedigrees of any breed, they mean of the two breeds that have been crossed.

This thread has convinced me that we did the right thing to rescue. Getting a purebred puppy seems a complete minefield that would require an awful lot of time and patience to do properly. Most people just want a healthy, happy family pet not a dog to show or to work and in fact traits that make a dog a show winner or a good worker may not make them a good family pet.

We got our pup at 6months from a reputable rescue organisation where he had been fostered in a family home so they were able to tell us all about him. They checked us out thoroughly too and would not have rehomed him to us if he wasn't suitable eg They refused us a German shepherd cross as first time owners and they were quite right to do so.

He doesn't have any behaviour problems that aren't just normal puppy stuff that people on the puppy threads here with pure breeds are also experiencing. Any issues he does have are almost certainly our own fault! He's a cheery confident guy who is very handsome and clever and I think he'll turn out a good dog as long as we keep up training etc

As a Dr I think it stands to reason that a mongrel will be healthier. In human beings the health risks of consanguinity are well recognised so surely by the basic rules of genetics the same is true of dogs. Sure you can health test for genetic conditions that are known but different ones will crop up in future as long as the gene pool is small. I am sure that for most family pet purposes it is not necessary at all to have some specific breed or crossbreed. Our family dog growing up was a mongrel from Battersea and she was a cracking dog, beloved by old and young who lived a long and happy life which is what I hope for ours.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

As a Dr I think it stands to reason that a mongrel will be healthier.

To a degree - but tests should still be done. The same health/genetic issues can cross different breeds. For example, hip dysplasia - very common in GS and labradors. So you could cross breed those two dogs, but that won't negate the possibility of a bad hip score, if they are both high scoring. It's like saying that labradoodles won't moult. They might! It's a dangerous (for the dog) assumption to say that cross breeding eliminates issues.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity I've been looking at various rescue sites for the past day and even they look highly competitive when it comes to trying to adopt. What's the process - do you fill in a form, specify what kind of dog you'd prefer and wait for the right one to turn up? Am prepared for a wait, I just feel like as first time dog owners we will be overlooked. (We have no young kids, we have a garden and live rurally, so I would think that those things would work in our favour).

[quote tiredofthisshit21]@CovoidOfAllHumanity I've been looking at various rescue sites for the past day and even they look highly competitive when it comes to trying to adopt. What's the process - do you fill in a form, specify what kind of dog you'd prefer and wait for the right one to turn up? Am prepared for a wait, I just feel like as first time dog owners we will be overlooked. (We have no young kids, we have a garden and live rurally, so I would think that those things would work in our favour).[/quote]
This is going to vary between every rescue centre. Some may have waiting lists, others may simply not have the man power to have waiting lists of people, especially if they have hundreds of applications every day and only one or two people to look through them.

If you can call around your local rescues and speak to someone they will let you know. If you can build a relationship with them and have a chat it's more likely you'll be successful than just pinging them an email and waiting (they'll have hundreds of emails too).

I do know of puppies who've had 100-200 applications within a few hours of going online, so patience is definitely required.

In the meantime you can make sure your home is A+ perfect - one thing they tend to be a stickler on is the security in your garden - thoroughly dig and escape proof. Many places ask for at least 5ft fencing. I found a Dachshund in my garden once - it had come from 5 doors down under and over fences. And a local Husky went through a phase of turning up in neighbours gardens and running around the roads trying to cause accidents.