Going to look at a cockerpoo puppy this morning

[BarchesterTowers]

We were on the wairin* list. But she rang yesterday saying that one of the current litter isn5t going to br picked up. Did w3 want to come look. Means we won’t get a choice.

TBH Mustard exactly the same thing could be said for many pedigree dogs. I hate the fad for poodle crosses. Because I can’t see what you gain by the cross breeding. Not like a Sprocker bred to work. And unfortunately often bought by people who like the cute teddy bear look and aren’t prepared for a cross of two such high energy breeds.

@mustardscreams I don't understand why you think that is all on cross breed owners? Puppy farming is a huge and evil business but cross breeds are just a part of it - and not even the biggest part of it.

French bulldogs, chihuahuas, daschunds, pugs are also all massively popular with farmers (a terrible 'achievement' for the breeds). Would you direct the same ire at their owners?

TBH I think better results at fighting puppy farming might come from greater focus on dogs as animals with their own wants and desires and needs. Not toys. Not a dressing up doll. Not accessories. Whilst some dogs might excel at those things, the longer we keep dogs but essentially want to deny any/all of their natural dog nature the easier it becomes to get one as a fad - for cheap and from anyone willing to supply.

We seem to want dogs to not bark or growl or fight, to be happy to give up all and any possessions, to not react to doorbells or visitors, to not dig or chew, to want to be everyone's friend, to be automatically ok with new types of people, to not chase cats or other furries, to not eat poo, to be happy being left alone, to lie down quietly for all but 2 x 30min walks, to be ok for those walks to be the same day-in-day out, to be ok with not going out when it's raining or snowing or cold or hot or when we are busy - and so on.

We have unrealistic expectations of them and it means that people buy a dog without thinking because they assume that 2 meals a day and a quick walk will be all the effort required. So they buy a dog from whoever is happy to sell them that lie for the least £ possible or with as little wait as possible. When that dog dares to need time and effort, they give it up, or dump it or sell it.

The more people will have to think about whether a dog is right for them then the less the experience of having a dog will disappoint when it's not so much about great selfies and more about cleaning fox shit out of their fur for the upteenth time.

Like so many things, dog ownership is given the social media makeover and portrayed as something it isn't. And that happens regardless of breed or mixture of breeds.

@TheyAllFloat yes absolutely! I’m as vocal on threads about those breeds as well (especially brachycephalic dogs as they suffer even when bred impeccably) but this is about poodle crosses.

It’s hard because having a dog is not a right, but I don’t think people should be without an animal if they can offer it a loving home that meets all the their needs. I have 2 spaniels and I’d be bereft without them. But they work and I WFH a lot so my lifestyle fits with theirs.

It just frustrates me that people give all these excuses for owning a poodle cross when either a spaniel or a poodle would be a right fit. There doesn’t need to be puppy farming, but people won’t do anything about it when they can turn a blind eye and get a cute puppy.

It just frustrates me that people give all these excuses for owning a poodle cross when either a spaniel or a poodle would be a right fit. There doesn’t need to be puppy farming, but people won’t do anything about it when they can turn a blind eye and get a cute puppy

This.

• i needed a cross because allergies.

No. If allergies were an issue you would have looked at a pure poodle or other hypoallergenic breed.

-the poodle coat is too high maintenance
No. Apart from the fact crosses are more maintenance due to the combination, if you care about maintenance there are plenty of short coated low maintenance breeds.

-i don’t like poodles
No bugger difference, as demonstrated by the pics above. My friend has a giant poodle and people always admire her “labradoodle”. Poodles aren’t all pom poms and top knots. If you don’t like poodles, there are plenty of other breeds.

It always seems to me that people who get doodles actually want poodles, but consider them deeply uncool. Whereas crosses are “designer” and trendy.

I reckon poodle breeders could call their dogs doodles, flog them for twice the price, and no one would notice. In fact they may be better of as they’re getting more of a known quantity....

"I reckon poodle breeders could call their dogs doodles, flog them for twice the price, and no one would notice. In fact they may be better of as they’re getting more of a known quantity...."

I think a lot of them are. I recently groomed a puppy that I am convinced was a black standard poodle. The owner wasn't happy about this and sniffed "She's a GOLDENDOODLE, and my husband gets very offended when anyone calls her a poodle." If that dog had golden retriever anywhere near it then I'm the Queen Mother.

Its true it's not just poodle cross.

The whole pedigree breeding industry needs looking at. As well as the poodle cross breeding.

I know quite a few people who have spent 1k and upwards for certain colours of frenchies. And then seem shocked the dog has breathing problems.

If you Google french bulldog problems, it's the first thing that comes up.

Bredding dogs to the point they have health problems, is not ok.

I just don't really get the whole poodle mix thing. I have a poodle. The breeds that they are mixed with often seem similar to the poodle character anyway. Like a pp said I think it's often that people sniff at the idea of a poodle for some reason.

My poodle isn't precious about being mucky, racing about, being left alone, or his food (sometimes I would like him to be a bit more picky about what he eats to be honest! ).

When I did my research on breeds (I'm allergic) and suggested a poodle to dh he honestly seemed to think the puppy would come out with Pom Poms all over.

Every day he's mistaken for a poodle mix. I like telling people he's a 'proper poodle'.

Here he is after enjoying some muddy ball action

I am often reading these forums, frustrated at the public burning breeders get, specifically because i am one that does care! So, fully aware of the pitchforks being sharpened in the background, i decided to make an account, and for just once, to give you the reality of this industry, from the other side of the looking glass, and directly respond to some comments, more to help people genuinely looking as i don't expect to change many of the minds at work here.

Puppy farm.
I do wonder if half the people that throw this Horrendous term about actually know what it is. they use it to refer to people with 2 dogs sometimes! a puppy farm has hundreds of dogs, churning out litters every season (every 6-8 months), kept in cages, with no health testing, registrations, human contact or welfare care. I have known many excellent breeders, with dogs at the top of their show/work fields, producing top quality much loved pups, who own more than 5 dogs, and they are certainly not puppy farmers! get your terminology right for a start.

The fact that she’s got 2 bitches expecting puppies so close together does not make her reputable
Doesn't make her disreputable either. Dogs seasons, just like human females that live together can and do sync. This is a flag, for sure, and more questions need to be made, however that's just sometimes how mother nature rolls, and if your girls are in prime condition and ready, you as the breeder have to roll with that and make real life adjustments to cope. You work around them, not them around you. If the breeder can cope, that's their decision to go ahead or not, they are the ones that are going to have several months of almost no sleep after all. Don't assume, ask.

Designer doggies .....
Every single "pure breed" dog was designed at some point. its just a matter of how long its been about (breeds true)/when the KC decides to recognize it.

KC registered means fuck all.
Yes ...... and no. Yes: it can mean nothing as even a pedigree can be a bad example of the breed and as with anything else, people can lie about the mating they are doing. I personally am in favor of more vigorous checks in this. No: the KC site will give you all the health testing the dog has had done registered to its microchip and restricts the pure breed litters from each dam it will register and wont register dogs that are too closely inbred, which is defiantly a good thing.

Adopt, don't shop.
Absolutely, if your in a position to help a abandoned dog, and have the experience and time it needs. However, rather than spewing out coverall marketing campaigns, lets actually look at that a bit closer and employ independent thought. I humbly suggest: Dont have unwanted litters that end up in rescue. Dont let random mating with no health screening take place. Dont get a dog then give it up to a rescue. Unless you are going to study and make the breed you life long occupation, neuter your dog. OFC there are genuine cases where a dog needs to be put up for adoption. and by all means adopt these poor mites, but maybe some of this ire should be turned towards the people that give up pets for no good reason (and from the horror stories friends of mine that work in rescues have told me, this is very often the case). To this day none of my pups are in rescue, and i even have a clause in my contract that if for whatever reason someone is genuinely unable to look after the dog, i will take it back , which yes, i have done!. I could get into a whole debate on this topic, but essentially rescue and breeders shouldn't be fighting, we should be working together. One to make sure only happy healthy pups are brought into the world, the other to help poor unfortunates.

It's a puppy mill because it's only for profit
Any breeder that says they are in it just for the breed ..... sorry, but i would walk away then and there, as they are fibbing to a extent. If they truly were, they wouldn't charge at all, as they would only be looking to continue lines, keep a pup from litter and re home rest free as they got what they want right?. No, this is the real world. If you want a well bred pup, with all the DNA screenings, good lines, socialization plans, exposure to environments/situations, proper vaccinations, proper house rearing, then realistically the breeder is going to need to take at least a month or two off work to raise a litter properly, and that's just when its on the ground, it doesn't include the massive amount of vet checks and time researching proper pairings etc. I think you are (again) mislabeling puppy mill and experienced professional breeder. In fact many puppy mil puppies are sold very cheap because the mill doesn't have the outlays a responsible breeder does. You cant have it both ways. Either someone is experienced, professional, does things right, has it become their life, their job, their focus and produces outstanding healthy well balanced pups, or, you have someone that doesn't know what they are doing, doing no testing (or not enough), and didn't dedicate full time hours to that litter. When you buy a well bred and reared pup you are not just paying for the pup, but for the breeders knowledge, time and expertise. This is why, again, people need to quiz any breeder to check they know their onions, and this can only be done, if the person buying has done their research too!

The fact that the term "breeding bitch" has been used turns my stomach
I hate it too! however the government requires me to call them this on paper work, and they actually refer to the dogs as "livestock". This is in the "welfare" act mind you. Which, as a side rant, is far more concerned with record keeping than it is with the dogs mental well being. Yet another reason for me to dislike politics, all the good intentions that started the changes (and i thoroughly agree with) get warped.

Plus don’t forget that these are very high maintenance dogs.
Absolutely true. If your out of the house consistently for more than 4 hours at a time, this is not the breed for you. Again, breed research.

warning signs ....She doesn't keep the dogs she no longer needs
Not 100% true. yes its a flag, ask those questions. however , another real world moment. If a breeder kept all their dogs, they would produce maybe 4-5 litters in ~the breeders~ lifetime, as they couldn't keep anymore dogs and still give them the attention they deserve. You cant really call them experienced at that point. Again, you cant have it both ways. Now before you all go and grab your pitchforks, what makes the difference is where the girls go when they retire. If they go to a rescue/sold to strangers, walk the hell away, that breeder obviously doesn't care. if they go to family or friends and the breeder still has regular contact (as they should want to) then that's a different story.

Isn't any talk of breed traits generalization?
Yes :P. its a guideline, not a absolute.

Her license should actually be displayed somewhere, that is part of the new welfare act.
Absolutely true in England, even one litter is classed as business. in wales/NI/Scotland, its decided on council by council bases. i know a few that say 3 litters a year before you need one. I personally think it should be one litter and you need one, but that's me :)

The dog is designed not to shed hair and They have very similar, if not the same coats
Misconception. Cockerpoo's ~do~ shed. however, a) the rate of shedding varies depending which side they take after ("silky" or straight coated cockerpoos who take after the cocker side do shed as much as a cocker .... which is a lot! lol), and b) it tends to get caught in coat, so it doesn't drop. Difference. Essentially, if you keep them groomed (which you must) you shouldn't see too much on the floor, this does not however mean "doesn't shed". If a breeder says otherwise they are either fibbing, or being ignorant of their breed, neither of which is acceptable. In fact until the pup is 6-8 weeks old, your not going to be able to tell if its coat will be silky/curly

Rescues often have over prohibitive rules.
Good. Pets shouldn't be easy to come by and thought should go into it. I tell people that come to me for a pup, that having one is akin to having a new child, and its the truth. Take it seriously, or get a tamagotchi. Many dogs in rescues are in need of extra care and love due to trauma, and so rescues should be careful about where they go.

The issue with poodle crosses is that they are often bred and sold irresponsibly.
Absolutely agree. The amount of people i have come to me that have been misinformed by breeder ignorance (back yard breeders), flat out lied to (mills), and in some terrible cases had a pup die when they bought it from a mill is heart breaking. At that point, i don't care if they take a pup (i turned a few down as they weren't done grieving and honestly i didn't want my little ones going into emotionally turbulent house), my concern is educating them so no matter where they get a dog from, they know what to look for.

We were turned down because we both work full-time
I would turn you down for a cocker spaniel or a cockerpoo on this basis also. I wouldn't however say you are not suitable for a more sedate and independent breed.

I think people who charge £££ for what is essentially a mongrel are taking the piss
So once we get over the "omg they cost that much?" reaction, and lets look at this. My girls are extensively DNA tested (PRA, FN, AMS, AON -as a minimum-). they have annual eye tests, both basic and more through ones, they come from good lines and usually cost me £1500 (if i buy to diversify my bloodlines) ~just in purchase price~, the best diet, 4 health checks a year, vaccinations/wormer/flea always up to date, full hand strip/groom every month (up to £100+ per dog). They live in my home, never in kennels and i am at home with them full time to pander to their needs both physical and mental. The stud dogs i hold to a equally high standard, and will pay exorbitant fee's/travel to get the right dog, insisting that all the relevant DNA tests and daily care are done for him as well. Now. this is just as much care as a "pure breed" (or any pup for that matter) parents would, and should get. I do not breed back to back, and none of my girls ever has more than 3 litters in a lifetime regardless of if its spaniels or poodle cross that has been planned So just because this is a cross between two KC registered dogs, does not (for me at least) mean that my little ones is any less precious and cared for than a dog that's pure lines and lives in a show ring. This is why when picking a breeder, price shouldn't be the issue, getting the right breeder should be the issue. Dont expect the best for a packet of peanuts. On the other hand, don't assume its the best because its expensive, check the care they are getting! any reasonable breeder will have no problem letting you get a reference from their vet.

It just frustrates me that people give all these excuses for owning a poodle cross when either a spaniel or a poodle would be a right fit.
People like different things. They are entitled to have preferences just as you do. It just frustrates me when people dismiss others preferences just because its not theirs.

A facebook page for cockers on face has a constant stream of people saying they bough a cocker but did not know if it was working or show type or what the difference is.
The amount of times i have seen this is shocking. If you are truly heart set on wanting a specific breed or cross ...... at least know about the breed/s. Otherwise, you don't actually know what you want, you just saw a pic and think its cute. I have done both working and show crosses, and i assure you, they have very different energy levels, needs and coats. I'm also going to say something here that may surprise, but don't ask the owner of the litter/dog which strain is best . they will always think the one they have is, or they wouldn't have bred/bought it! Look on breed club websites/KC for a unbiased view.

I’d be v reluctant to come and ask for advice here though...
I don't blame you! There is a reason that advice in this field is hard to come by for someone seriously after a specific breed, and its because most breeders are aware of the roasting they will get if they give it (im putting on my fire proof pants as we speak :) )

I’ve said this a thousand times, but for every ‘good’ poo cross breeder there is countless more hideous ones, that make animals live’s an absolute hell. And that is the problem.

I’m not against dog breeding in the slightest, both my spaniels were from breeders. What I am against, and will forever be against, is these fashionable dog breeds being used to make people money.

The breeders aren’t doing it to produce fabulous working dogs, or breed out a bad trait, or better a line. Poo crosses were initially bred to be non-shedding/hypoallergenic guide dogs, which would have been great! But it didn’t work out because so few are actually hypoallergenic.

Poo crosses are bred because they make money. I’ve seen them being sold for upwards of £1500!!! And a top of the line working spaniel doesn’t even garner that price.

People can have preferences of course. But not to the detriment of animals.

Honestly i put a lot of time into my lines to try and bring out the best traits. So much so that i actually end up with more spaniels as im trying to bring out traits in the mothers to pass on to the poo crosses. So in reality, i have more spaniels than poo's! I specifically go for temperament > curl coat / form.

I have paid upwards of 1500 for a cocker in the past (she was from top notch show lines as i wanted to improve the coat quality of my lines), but that's what you do if your serious about it. the work and cost of making a high standard cross is just as much as doing a high standard pure breed, in fact that's really my core point. there shouldn't be a difference in care/cost to rear the litter. they are both living things and deserve the same.

Dont get me wrong here, I am vehemently against any breeder that puts the dogs health at risk, and i think in fact being in this world only makes me more so, as people do tend to tar everyone with the same brush straight out of the gate.

But if you have mothers with excellent traits, why are you diluting that with poodles? See this is what I don’t understand. A top of the line show spaniel’s pups will ensure her excellent breeding continues, her traits are hopefully passed on, and you have a litter of healthy, happy pups. Crossing that with a poodle to bring the traits in a) won’t work because selective breeding can take generations to see the positives and b) the spaniels already have the ideal traits (which is why you bought the bitch).

Surely you’d breed 2 exceptional spaniels, keeping the bloodline diverse but bringing top standard pups into the world?

...wont register dogs that are too closely inbred

That's not quite the case. They won't register the offspring from specific, very close familial matings (parent to offspring or between full siblings) but they put no restrictions on actual levels of inbreeding.

this is why i end up with more spaniels :) i will always take a good mothers line forward. and what you see as diluting, thats not how i see it. i am only going to pair one of my ladies with a top end poodle as well, im not going to throw just any old male on her.

I am interested in producing top level cockerpoo's, as close to "ideal" as you can get. So i will also hold back a cockerpoo and back cross it to a poodle or a cocker if i want to work on its traits.

All breeds didn't just appear fully formed, they were made by carefully crossing different breeds to bring out the traits that you want. and i see my program as exactly that. As you quite rightly said, the original reason for making cockerpoo's didn't work out, but i think, as a breed, they have so much potential and so much to give us. they are loving loyal, quick witted and so friendly. They have needs to, as does any breed, lots of exercise, grooming and they certainly arnt a breed that can be left alone.

Until people take things seriously with this cross and work to bring it to a uniform state, through many many generations, it will forever be consigned to the pile of fashion, and not where it belongs, as a adorable, loving and beautiful dog with so much to give

We have a doodle by accident. Someone had bought a puppy and found they didn't like all that comes with a puppy so he came to live with us. I wonder if we funded inadvertently puppy farming but he needed a home.

We also had a poodle which we puppy walked for Hearing Dogs and if we ever got another dog I wouldn't hesitate to get a pure poodle. As mentioned up thread not a pom pom insight and the bravest little dog you could meet. Full of beans, very loving and a fan of mucky rivers!

looks like they are having a lovely day at the beach!

Shake thank you. So nice to hear from a responsible breeder.

My DSis used to breed a fairly rare breed dog and also limited bitches to three litters max in their lifetime.

Yes shake, thanks for an brilliant post from the other side of the barricades. I feel so sorry for some 'posters' who ask genuine questions etc, and are barraged with negative responses as soon as they mention 'poo' or 'doodle' as their dog of choice, ( and as I walk my two in a very densely dog populated area, meeting MANY doo's and oodles of every mixture ) I can understand why these lovely dogs are the choice of many families. X

shakemyhead it's good to hear from a breeder. I think I am somewhere in the middle of this debate. I work with rescue, but also get its nor for everyone. I foster dogs and some people assume I train all negative behaviour out of the dog and they are a blank slate. They dont realise that some dogs will have life long problems. Even when behaviourist are involved. For example some dogs will always need to be an only dog. I do think dog owners need to be more responsible. Even people who rescue dogs, arent always responsible. Even with home checks people lie. I liked you post.

But I am wondering if you could answer a few questions.

To this day none of my pups are in rescue, and i even have a clause in my contract that if for whatever reason someone is genuinely unable to look after the dog,i will take it back

If you breed quite alot, do you do checks on each home? Or do you only sell locally? I am not sure how you can know people have 100% come back to you. For example my last foster dog was a dog that the owners wanted us to rehome. Then they said they has a behaviourist and were going to make it work. 3 weeks later someone else approached us with the same dog. The original owner, had sold him on, not tried to improve the situation. We would never had known that. Our rescue does a further home check in the 12 months after adoption. Its rare, but it's happened that at that point, we have had people admit the dog has been rehomed again. Despite it been in the adoption paperwork that they must come back to the rescue. I am glad you can guarantee non are in rescue and wondering how you do it.

Misconception. Cockerpoo's ~do~ shed. however,

And this is a huge issue. There are posters on this thread that insist theirs doesn't shed or that it low grooming. For every decent breeder, there many peddling the 'doesnt shed' line. And, I conceed, too many people that are prepared to buy them without actually looking at that. The rescue I work with are very clear about cockapoos and their hair, because people have heard the myth and 100% believe it. Even when you tell them the truth. Cockapoos can be difficult to rehome for this reason.

I agree that rescue should have strict guidelines. I just believe that alot of rescues need to have rules that relate to the individual dogs more than blanket bans.

People like different things. They are entitled to have preferences just as you do. It just frustrates me when people dismiss others preferences just because its not theirs.

But that's the point. I an yet to come across anyone who says anything other that 'because we want a dog that doesnt shed'. I have already said, I have a preference for spaniels. I don't know why. I know many dogs are just as lovely. But spaniels always steal my heart. But no one says that. People just keep peddling the myth about their coat. Which says to me they have bought from a dodgy breeder AND didnt look into what they were buying at all. That's a disaster waiting to happen. I am yet to meet a cockapoo owner that says anything but 'cause coat'.

The amount of times i have seen this is shocking. If you are truly heart set on wanting a specific breed or cross

I posted about people not knwoing8what type of cocker they have and it really us shocking. Some are adults where you can tell by just looking and they still dont know the difference. I mean you can Google it and see the differences. Again the breedee must be crao and the owner hasn't looked into what they want. As an aside I am a spaniel owner that has no preference for working or show. I have had both and when asked I always say both have their plus points. As I am saying this I have 2 spaniels staring at me that one I am unsure of their type. She is a rescue. I am confident she is a working at this stage it could go either way. With the puppy, we were told working by the owner. However the 'breeder' also threatened to throw the puppy and her sister in the river in a box at the side if the road if the rescue didnt come get them as they were moving on. So who knows if they are lying or not. However, we are set up at home for either. I work from home most of the time. My part stays home if I cant. And on the odd occasion that neither of us can be home, my sil (also a spaniel owner) comes round. Walks and mental training all happen for both, even the older one, everyday without fail. We pretty much cancelled christmas so we could care for her and her sister until the sister was old enough to fo her forever home.

I do agree there are problems on both breedee AND purchaser side. And it makes me so sad for the poor dogs that suffer. There been another post on the fb group of a young woman who is an experienced dog owner. The puppy sleeps in her room and is angry the dog had several poos and chewed things. She says she has had 6 puppies and never had this. It appears that at 22 she has had 6 puppies, but no adult dogs. Its horrifc that she keeps purchasing dogs and then doesnt keep them when they display normal puppy behaviour.

I think my last question is why. I am not being arsey. But i fail to see what a cocker brings to the poodle party or what the poodle brings to the spaniel party. Probably because the only answer I get is 'cause coat', even from breeders, I am not seeing how the cross makes either breed better

At the end of the day it is about money. Poodle crosses are sought after at the moment and they go for a high price. Even having a breeder here talking obviously with love for the dogs, there is no definitive answer as to why they’re breeding cockapoos. The coat mainly, but even by their admission that is very hit and miss.

I just had a look at the local dog selling pages (not recommending to use these EVER btw, but just to get an idea) and someone is selling cockapoos for £1300 and the only health test either parents have had is the dad is PRA clear. The bitch hasn’t had any health screening. So you’re paying top price for a genetic lottery, for a dog that probably will shed.

Compare that to a cocker litter that the parents have had the necessary screenings, are clear and are £750. Cockers don’t even shed that much, especially smooth coat workers.

@shakemyhead101

You sound great. But I do think breeders of crosses like yourself are incredibly rare. People just don’t do their research on breeds let alone breeders, and often once the decision to get a dog is made they don’t want to hang around 6 months or a year until a good breeder has a pup ready.

You do all the tests, which is fab. But again, most members of the public don’t even know tests should be done, and there’s no regulation, so most just believe a breeder who says they’ve had all their tests.

Bottom line is the lies and myths peddled by the unscrupulous breeders have permeated into public consciousness and it will take quite a bit of work to undo the hypoallergenic/non shedding stuff...and I do think a big part of the poo popularity is the perception of poodles as a breed.

When i was looking for a dog i was offered a fair few poo’s- including a chihuahua cross. Most were giving them up because they weren’t what they expected- several because their child was allergic when they’d been assured crosses were hypoallergenic. I’ve even seen someone insisting they needed a yorkie cross because their child was allergic to dogs but they wanted a yorkie. Couldn’t get it through to them that yorkies are a breed less likely to trigger allergies, so no need to cross. The general logic seems to be it is the act of crossing with a poodle that results in a hypoallergenic dog.

I have a very small dog from a breeder. The litter was bred as a show litter, but one ended up much smaller than breed standard with some issues. So the litter was sold as pets and that line neutered. But I have been stopped in the street fairly often by other dog owners who have bitches and think he would make a great stud dog, and the resulting litter of tiny fluffy puppies with a portmanteau name would sell for £1.5k each.

Hi scars, and same its great to hear from a rescuer of dogs, you guys do great work, and i truly respect your calling. as i said, we should be working together, not at odds.

so to answer some points (and you make some good ones).

Yes i do vet Owners, apart from extensive conversations during home visits, many lasting several hours (and multiple visits at that), i build a good rapport with many of the families looking. I always ask that all adults that will be responsible for the pup come to visit, as i want to get to know them all. If fairly obvious within a time if the person has done their research. I go over exercise needs, grooming, mental stimulation and training, puppy classes and just about anything else i can think of to make sure they know what they are getting in for. You are absolutely right however, and i do sympathize with rescues on this, that its literally impossible to be 100% sure if you don't know a person. Many of my pups go to either people i know, referrals, friends of people that have had one already, and vast majority are on a waiting list (which is currently two years long as i wont rush a litter just to fill a list, my girls are ready when they are ready, end of).

A lot of people turn up with the attitude of expecting me to bend over backwards to get them to buy a pup. The opposite is true. I have no shortage of homes, i want them to convince me that they should have one.

In that time all the chatting back and fore, you tend get a good idea of what someone is like (its much harder to keep up a pretense over a long wait than it is in a single visit). I speak with relative surety about where my pups are, as i am in active contact. My phone practically explodes at Christmas when i get the most adorable Christmas pictures (i'll never forget patches with his birthday hat sat in-front of a doggy cake with his brothers lol), updates on how they are doing, if people have any questions they can come and ask, im not just there when they pick it up, i am there for the life of the pup, and they know that. I also get a very large number of people that come back to me if they decide to get another pup (as i will never give two pups at once, at least a few years has to pass first), so again, there is contact. Is there a possibility that somewhere along the line someone has been irresponsible? ofc there is, I should have probability put "to the best of my knowledge" there as you know from your work, you can do everything, be there for anything, and some people will still lie, mess you around, and generally mislead you :/ i wish this wasn't the case, but it is.

I absolutely inform anyone buying that cockerpoo's shed. because they do. there is no point me saying otherwise, or the poor mite might run into problems later down the line, and the last thing i want, is a pup to need re homing because its owners cant be bothered to groom them. I always take time to go over what brushes they need to buy, how often they will need to groom, recommend getting a professional groomer and advise on the average cost of all of the above. it genuinely makes my eye twitch when i see adds saying "hypo allergenic".

As for reasons people come. i do hear non-shedding coat a lot, which is why i immediately bat that one right out of the park and dig deeper (i will dismiss it on the first phone call before we even agree to meet). The thing that i also get a lot is that they hear these dogs are great for families, and this i do agree with (though im not a fan when the children are too young, as it so easy for them to think , as a child does, that its a toy not a living thing, so some common sense applies here). On the proviso that someone is home most of the time, as these dogs need companionship. they are extremely people focused, so that is a absolute condition for me. For me at least, that provision applies just as much to cockers as it does to cockerpoo's.

As for the differences, they are subtle, but there, and this in particular is where strain comes in. Temperament wise, i consider the worker strain cocker and poodle to be extremely similar, however the show type is generally more sedate (relatively. all cocker are a bit bonkers and clown like, its one of the reasons we love them :) ), which is what i work with in the majority, i have used workers before, but that's a exception, not a rule. In fact a true cockerpoo was originally a american cocker and a poodle, which is a different shade of grey again! I have personally chosen to work more with show, as i want to bring their calmness to help balance the bonkers (and i say that with extreme fondness) nature of the poodle, I prefer a longer, fuller, loosely curled coat (note i refer to its length and fullness , NOT this mythical non shedding), and i am not a fan of short snouted breeds (american cocker) for health reasons. Again, this is preference, im aware there are plenty of healthy ones and spaniels are one of the most healthy groups in general (i can feel American cocker owners rising in horror as i say this!).

I think, in general, i actually agree with you, especially on there being problems on both sides. It may surprise people to know, but i am actually in favor of more restrictions, regulations, licensing and inspections, for both breeders and owners. As a few examples off the top of my head, as microchipping is now a legal requirement for the breeder for every litter, why cant new litters, cross or not, be logged with the kennel club to be at least counted to the "3 and done" rule? Why can some councils allow 3 litters ~per year~ , sold at any price and not call it a business and need a licence? What would actually be wrong with people needing a dog license and have to attend basic dog care classes and puppy classes? Its not a cure all no, but why not put that in? Dogs are expensive to care for properly, if your not willing to go, then maybe a rethink is in order. Again with microchipping, why cant the breeder/rescue/previous owner be notified if a dog is sold? Why cant the recommended inbreeding % (co-efficent) be the standard bar instead of direct sibling/parent? Why when a breeder breaks the KC recommendations are just the pups not registered, why cant the girl have her pedigree removed to discourage this behavior from happening again?

Again, this may also surprise, but, as my husband will attest, the pure rants i have when i see adverts online from some breeders. where they don't do health testings etc. Someone who isn't actively involved in this area honestly wouldn't know the difference either, its very frustrating not to be able to call these people out sometimes (and i do where i can) I will never forget, one stud owner turned round and told me that her stud didn't need a eye test because he was tested for FN. FN is a kidney disease! (and not even going into how the eye test covers many many conditions) This shows yet again, there are many breeders like me i am sure, that would defiantly be in favor of much tighter regulation, because, in the most honest way possible, we take a ~lot~ of hate and most of the time, its not because what we have personally done, but what other, irresponsible heartless people have done.

As for why i do this, this is a total valid question, and i will attempt to answer without getting too personal. As a young child, for various reasons, i suffered from PTSD. Growing up my dog (a cocker as a matter of fact) was a constant companion, and he was the best thing i had in a very bleak life. He brought me hope and comfort on a level that is hard to explain to someone that hasn't been there, my love of the doe eye'd cocker was born. Unfortunately for Tyler, he was a "accident". the product of what happened when a irresponsible owner let a bother and sister get at each other, and as a result he passed away at a young age due to medical issues that were a direct result of the bad breeding. My next dog wasn't actually mine but a neighbors, and she was a poodle cross (labradoodle) and it was pure love at first sight. Her energy, fondness and always there to comfort bought her a special place in my heart that continues long after she passed away at a healthy old age. I spent almost all my free time there when i wasn't in school (the lady was older and childless and became like a third mother to me), Susy and i were inseparable. I have a very personal love for both variants, and so they are the ones i choose to work with. I have made them my life, vocation and i hold no shame for that whatsoever.

I breed them both to the same standard of health testing and background checks, as i said before, there is absolutely no excuse for not health checking before you even consider a pairing, weather it is cocker spaniels, cockerpoos, or any other animal where testing/screening is freely available. If all i wanted was the money, then i would just do cockerpoos, never a spaniel. I am speaking directly to anyone considering getting one of these breeds when i say, I would absolutely never endorse buying a pup without health screening, not just because of the risks, but also the very fact they didn't bother to get it done speaks volumes about the breeder. If anyone is curious about what health tests they should look for, please, feel free to message me and i will help. And no, i don't have a litter, but i am more than happy to help you know what tests you should look for, what the documents proving them should look like etc.

The dogs are indeed very similar in temperament, but then a lot of dogs are people orientated, easy to train etc, which is why i say this is a preference thing, and people are allowed to have them. If this was a unhealthy cross with a multitude of health issues (see pugs, British bulldogs, really, take your pick of many pure breeds here) i would completely agree, but its not, they are fine, happy healthy dogs that have specific requirements just like any other. I had to smile when you said you were a spaniel owner as its generally owners of pure spaniels and poodles that get the most irate, so it was good to hear such a balanced tone!

I think its absolutely vital the breeders and rescues start a civilized discourse, (which is why i was so glad to read your post) and work together to ensure a happy and healthy future for these precious animals. So its great to hear from someone working in this field, as together we can do more good than we can apart. Education needs to happen, to both breeders and prospective owners, and until we all put down our swords and start talking, only the animals are going to suffer.

@bluebluezoo You have actually hit the nail on the head of exactly why i made this post in the first place, and why, knowing i would take a good flaming, i still did it. People need to be made aware. its in the best interests of the dogs, the families that take them, everyone. Its why i am more than happy to help people understand the testing if they wish me too. Just shouting out hate does nothing, we need to help the people that want these dogs understand what they are getting, what it entails from a care perspective and what checks really should be done as a matter of standard.

I truly wish i had all the answers, i really do, but if even one person thinking of getting a cockerpoo has read this post and found some things to look up and check, then i am grateful and happy

I don't think you will get a flaming :)

Flamings are reserved for those who recommend or want 'poos for all the reasons you mention, without thought to how the puppy is bred or the fact that the fashion for crosses is driving the less responsible side of the puppy industry.

The hate for poos isn't for the dogs themselves, it's the people who buy into all the myths of non shedding and hypoallergenic, or that crossing means all the pedigree health issues disappear.

I usually chip in with these threads as I also hope pointing out the misconceptions will make someone stop and think, or at least do some more digging into where their dog is coming from.

Like you say, I think my breed is the best , and i realise poo owners want to recommend theirs. But I don't think it's helpful unless it's accompanied by the many caveats- in theory the 'poo crosses sound great, no shedding, don't trigger allergies, family dog etc, but that is not reality, and I don't want people going out and buying a poo on that basis...

i absolutely agree :) It is my dearest hope that we can blow these myths out of the park, and allow people to just love these dogs for what they are, and not for some myth.

I am noticing a slight swing in the people that contact, more and more they are realizing that the non-shedding is a myth/arnt surprised to hear it. we arnt there yet, not by a clear country mile, but with time and patience, i think we could get there! Regardless of where this breed/cross w/e you wish to call it ends up, it will always have a fond place in my heart, and i will work with them for as long as i have feet able to keep up with them!

Thank you for answering.

I am just still confused. The hair thing is a myth

So I just dont get what each dog brings to the other and why people wouldnt just get a poodle or a show style cocker.

I get they are lovely dogs. People have preferences. But I dont think they are any different to cockers or poodles. Or at least a big difference.

And it's that, that I find frustrating. Lots of spaniels are already rehomed because people arent prepared for what being a spaniel owner is. Most people couldnt identify a poodle. Nevermind know its traits.

I am just wondering what the plus point is. When a buyer wants a cockapoo (presuming they actually do research) and they realise the hair thing is a myth. What is that makes them decide cockapoo is better than a cocker or poodle. Is it just looks? Which I dont particularly object to, as long as the owner is a responsible person.

And when a potential buyer comes to you. Obviously, you have explained all about the hair (most will get in contact because of their coat) what makes them stick with a cockapoo, rather than cocker or poodle.

hi scar,

i honestly wish i had a crystal ball to look into peoples heads sometimes as well, would make my life a lot easier when interviewing prospective owners!

Top reasons i get told (after dispelling the coat myth), in order of frequency (roughly)

1. My friend/relative has one and i love her/him (this is by faaaaaaar the most common, way over half)
2. I hear this is a good family dog - this one is a bit more obscure, yes many dogs could work here, and they arnt wrong, its is a very friendly little chap. however this is where some serious conversation about care comes in, primarily around if they will have time for its needs along with a family. see my ref to high maint (which they are)
3. Yes, people do like the look of them. Why don't they like poodles? preference. I base that on the misconceptions about pom poms, i certainly do, i think poodles are wonderful dogs in their own right. I think this would be akin to a huskey breeder asking people why they dont like Malamute instead. Poodles do have a public image problem which they really dont deserve in my eyes.