Has anyone any experience of a puppy with increasingly aggressive tendencies?

[ladyandthechocolate]

We collected our miniature schnauzer puppy at 8.5 weeks old and he is now 15 weeks. We spent a long time finding a breeder and have had dogs before.
He is a lovely puppy and so good in many ways, affectionate, smart and calm but very stubborn. We use clicker training and he picks things up quickly.
We first started to notice him growling a bit very soon after we got him mainly when lifting him out of the car or up the step into the house (it's a big drop). This gradually extended to him growling, snarling and biting whenever doesn't want to do something i.e. Wiping his feet, moving him away from the dirty dishwasher, in/out of the car. We can no longer use a harness on him and he'll even growl when we clip and unclip his lead. He would snarl and bite if we removed food but obviously we don't do that- we have always been respectful of him but equally, treated him as a dog and not a baby.
It came to a head this week when I took him for his third set of jabs and he lost the plot and totally went for the vet when she went to lift him onto her table.
We have had a one to one with a trainer last week in addition to the puppy classes we are going to. He showed us some counter conditioner techniques to get him used to the kind of handling he isn't comfortable with. We've been practising these all week and I think he's made some good progress in that he will allow us to gently wipe his paws and groom him. The trainer was very confident that he'll be ok but I'm still worried really. I cannot imagine him being ok with being professionally groomed or having a proper vets examination without a muzzle.
Most of the time we can head off the situations before the growling stage but sometimes not - he got back from a really muddy walk and needed his paws washed. He was ok initially then tried to jump out, my DH held him to steady him and he bit him on the hand.
I was wondering if anyone has encountered this behaviour before and if so what happened? We have 4 DC and while he has shown no direct aggression to them I am mindful of closely supervising them.
The vet said it's really unusual to get such behaviour in a young puppy and I am worried he'll grow into an aggressive adult.

What do you do in situations where he growls at you? How did you react the first time when this happened?

Hi, well we never told him off- am aware that is the worst thing you can do.
Initially we gave him a treat when we picked him up to develop a positive association but he started eating the treat and then growling so we stopped that. The trainers at our class suggested trying to engineer the situation where he can choose to do what we need him to do i.e. Going down a ramp out of the car instead of being lifted. We are able to do that most of the time but there are situations that arise where it isn't always possible.
Objectively I can see that the growling and snarling is totally working for him- the vet put him down on the floor when we went through bite her and didn't attempt to pick him up again.

I agree that's very young to be displaying those level of behaviours. I do think dogs, like any animal, can learn that a behaviour i.e. growling, can get them what they want, but I wouldn't think that's what's happening with a pup of his age. I'd be concerned that something was up, is he in pain when being lifted, do you know/are you confident about his history with the breeder before he came to you?

I would get him checked for pain.

Then, I'm sorry but he would get a bit of a bollocking from me, and he would be put outside for a bit. I obviously wouldn't hurt him. But he needs to know consequences.

I'm 100% sure he's not in pain- he had a full vet check initially at 9 weeks before he was as bad as he is now. He loves a cuddle and is happy to let me squeeze and examine paws, legs ears etc as I have done since we got him. He gets bitey and excited when playing but this behaviour is different.
I was happy with the breeder- they are devoted to the breed, have been breeding a long time, I met all their dogs and all was well. My only criticism was that they were a bit old fashioned in their approach and when he arrived he was on weetabix and rice pudding as well as kibble.
I totally feel like giving him a bolllocking when he does it but I'm aware that it's not a recommended method!

It seems to me, that he growls when you need to pick him up or hold him.
Have you asked the breeder about how / where the puppy was raised? (If the breeder has more than one litter, he may have had very little human interaction and everything is frightening and overwhelming. Or he was raised in a kennel...)

Are you able to touch his body all over? As in doing a health check? Do you "talk" to him... like I have a look into your ear... lift your paw... Pick up time...
Also, get a soft baby hairbrush to establish a grooming routine. Call him, show him the brush and touch him with it, say "brush time" so he learns... Increase brush time and area slowly.
But remember: little and often is key to success!

You need to try different methods until you find one which works with your dog. But don't let him think he can get away with it.

Don't bollock him for growling. All that will happen is he'll stop growling but will just bite without warning instead. It sounds like he really doesn't like being handled. Does he like being stroked at all?

He is still young, so you should be able to turn this round fairly easily I think. He is also small, so you don’t need to worry about him overpowering you at any point. I am guessing you might have had easier breeds before and his stubborness has taken you by surprise? 😄

You are right, it would have been best to tell him off from the word go. Do not let a puppy to bully you -ever, because that is essentially what he is doing. Please remember; you are the boss, and he is the dog.

He is still very young, essentially a toddler. He is growling at you/vet etc because you let him. He thinks he is in charge, but you can stop this. He is just trying to push the boundaries to see how far he can go (just like toddlers do with their tantrums. It is natural and just a part of their ‘toddlerhood’). Just stop this behaviour now, let him know it is unacceptable.

The positive approach (praising, rewarding with treats, play etc) for any good behaviour is always best, but you also need to make sure the pup doesn’t think it can boss you around. The more time you can spend playing with the pup, the better you will bond, and the more he will want to please you. Play and fun times are very important for pups (and you ).

When any unwanted aggressive behaviour is first shown (growling aggressively rather than playfully, biting when brushing/nail clipping is taking place etc), Grab the pup from the neck scruff and firmly say NO! Not hard, just so they understand it as “telling off”.

Just repeat every time unwanted behaviour is shown, and reward/praise enthusiastically when he behaves well. Consistency is super important. Never let him get away with unwanted behaviour, and always praise everything he does right. Just be firm. Goid luck!

Ylvamoon- he was raised in a home. They have max 1 litter per year and the pups were socialised as you hope they would be.
You are right in saying it's when we pick him up but it's not every time, only when he wants his own way. He sometimes asks to be picked up so I couldn't say he hates it but it's always on his terms.
If you read my above post you can see that he is fine with examination and handling because we have done that from the start.

Amayabuzzbee- thanks. That's great advice. I think I may have taken positive reinforcement too far and have never told him off!
You're right that I am taken aback by his feistiness. All previous dogs have been biddable but he is something else! He is so lovely though really.

Ylvamoon made a good point about sensitivity to touching. Make it a daily routine (after exercise/play when he is tired and relaxed) to touch him everywhere. Stroke/massage him, gently touch all his toes, paws, face, ears etc, and brush very softly so he gets used to being handled and touched all over whilst relaxed. He should then start associating being touched as something positive and lovely.

Have you spoken to the breeder? We have a terrier and he is very vocal, doesn't mean a thing by it but "answers back" all the time, if he was a human he would have a foul mouth on him! It's not unusual in terriers I know a few like him. Most of it is growling based and in similar situations to yours. It's just chat. He is a very affectionate little dog who we have had now for 6 years so we are confident of his temperament now.

Showing who’s boss and grabbing by scruff of neck/putting them outside etc don’t really cure the problem. They give pup something else to be fearful of.

Rewarded behaviours get repeated

Look at good force free accredited trainers.

Oh I'm sorry, I've re read your post and seen that he's biting too, please disregard what I said and listen to your vet. I'm afraid to say that doesn't sound good at all. We "rescued" a young male who turned out to be aggressive, we worked very hard to try and resolve it, including castration, but had to have a major rethink after he bit my daughter on her top lip without warning and she had to be stitched up under GA. I felt it was time to PTS but was over ruled. He'd bitten without any warning and hard enough to draw blood several times by then but we felt that crossed a line as he just walked up to her and went for her. We put him back into rescue with full honest disclosure (which we hadn't had). He went to an adult couple but went for the husband and drew blood in the first 48 hours.He was PTS after that. He was a pedigree and some research into his breeding showed that he had a couple of bloodlines that were notorious for temperament problems. I really hope you have a better outcome than we did.

One other thing I’d like to add; schnautzers are an intelligent breed. If you don’t already do this, try spending a little time every single day training him/teaching basic obedience.

The concentration span will be very short at this age (probably 5 min training at a time in between play sessions so it’s always fun and very short) but the mental stimulation will tire him out in a good way and will help you bond further (and will get him to listen to you too).

I don't think he has a problem with being handled in that he loves being stroked and will sit on our laps and snooze while I look on his ears and trim his paw pad fur.
If I was to sum him up, he's a determined puppy who likes his own way and makes his feelings clear if he's thwarted.

Posh Penny- I'm sorry to hear that. It's what I'm most worried about if I'm honest. The difference is he's predictable to an extent with his aggression.
We do training every day, he's good with retrieving, recall, sit, down and settle. We do plenty of enrichment activities too.
I've not spoken to the breeder yet, am wussing out slightly but will do it this week. We had to pass their 'test' to get him and I'm worried they'll blame us.

PoshPenny, this is a 15-week old puppy of a stubborn breed we are talking about, not a young rescue dog whose background is unknown!

He is essentially a baby/toddler who just needs boundaries, love and a lot of patience and consistency from the owner to get through the puppy/teenager phase to become a lovely balanced family dog.

Out of interst OP, what breeds did you have previously? If you get stuck, the breeder will no doubt be able (and happy to!) advice on various issues /questions which might be breed/temper specific.

We had labs before! Couldn't have chosen a more different breed really...

OP, I think your breeder would be really pleased if you contacted them for advice on any behavioural issues.

Tell them first all the good and brilliant things your pup does/can do, and then explain what behaviour you are struggling with and ask for their advice.

Presuming they are reputable breeders, they will be familiar with most problem areas and will be able to give breed specific help.

Please remember 15 weeks is super young! Generally puppies get easier at about 6 months of age. Till then they can be right little buggers! You just have to be consistent and show them the right way. Eventually they’ll get it !

Please, please DON'T do what @AmayaBuzzbee recommends re telling him off for growling. He is growling to let you know he is not comfortable about being picked up (or whatever). If you tell him off for growling, he may well stop growling (i.e. warning you) and go straight to biting you with no warning!
I would get him checked again by a vet for pain and then ask on the Facebook group 'dog training advice and support' for help.
Certainly continue with the counter conditioning, remember you've had him a few weeks for him to develop these behaviours, it will take a while to change him. You may also benefit from learning a bit more about the early warning signs he will be giving you before the growl, so you can modify his behaviour earlier.
Again, PLEASE DON'T tell him off for growling.

I suggest you contact breeder for advice, but I am baffled by people suggesting not telling a puppy off for unwanted behaviour.

How will they learn if you don’t? How do kids learn to behave if you never tell them no?

We are not talking about a grown up dog with learnt issues who growls, but a puppy who is testing their/your boundaries.

Mine certainly tried their boundaries as puppies and were told off firmly when needed. Both grew up to absolutely lovely big soft lumps/loving and easygoing family members (Doberman and German Shepherd).

He's only 15 weeks old . My Ddog was quite bitey at that age, she doesn't bite now ever. She doesnt like being picked up and still objects to that, unless it's on her terms.

Agree with TheDogHasEatenIt that telling the dog off is not what you need to do. There are numerous studies showing that aggressive discipline (under which telling off is placed) is MORE likely to result in aggressive behaviour from a dog. In short, using telling off is likely to make this dog worse, not better. Kids may be different mainly because they develop language which allows them to understand what the telling off is for. Dogs will just understand the telling off as being aggression.

There is also no guarantee the dog will link the telling off to the growling and you can get some very odd (and dangerous) problems as a result. In fact, tell the dog off for growling at your child and the dog is more likely to link the telling off with the presence of the child than with the growl. The result is a dog that is fearful of your child. Left with that fear the dog is likely to start associating it with other children. The end result is a dog that is no longer able to be near children.

That does not mean there should be no consequences for some behaviours but that consequences should not be in the form of confrontation. Shake it by the scruff of the neck and you risk ruining the dog for life - which is pretty much why every single reputable dog institute forbids force based training.

The breeder will not judge you, OP. Even if they do, so what? You bought the dog so it's not like they can take it back off you by force. Talk to them and see what they say.

However, your trainer sounds good. At this age is can be very easy to think this is how the dog is going to behave forever and they very rarely do. Patience, patience and more patience. Persistence and kindness. Avoiding situations where the dog feels growling might work to get him what he wants is sensible - use alternative ways to achieve the same things that allow the dog choice and rewards.

E.g. if a dog doesn't like his claws being clipped and growls when you reach for his paw - don't reach for his paw. Instead work on him choosing to offer you his paw instead. If he tries to withdraw it then let him. A nail clipping session that lasts 30 mins because he pulls his paw away 30 times but never growls is better than one that lasts 30 seconds in which he uses growling to get you to let go.

Google The Bucket Game () which is a way of making it clear to the dog that he has a choice and so doesn't need to use aggression to exercise that choice.