Has anyone any experience of a puppy with increasingly aggressive tendencies?

[ladyandthechocolate]

We collected our miniature schnauzer puppy at 8.5 weeks old and he is now 15 weeks. We spent a long time finding a breeder and have had dogs before.
He is a lovely puppy and so good in many ways, affectionate, smart and calm but very stubborn. We use clicker training and he picks things up quickly.
We first started to notice him growling a bit very soon after we got him mainly when lifting him out of the car or up the step into the house (it's a big drop). This gradually extended to him growling, snarling and biting whenever doesn't want to do something i.e. Wiping his feet, moving him away from the dirty dishwasher, in/out of the car. We can no longer use a harness on him and he'll even growl when we clip and unclip his lead. He would snarl and bite if we removed food but obviously we don't do that- we have always been respectful of him but equally, treated him as a dog and not a baby.
It came to a head this week when I took him for his third set of jabs and he lost the plot and totally went for the vet when she went to lift him onto her table.
We have had a one to one with a trainer last week in addition to the puppy classes we are going to. He showed us some counter conditioner techniques to get him used to the kind of handling he isn't comfortable with. We've been practising these all week and I think he's made some good progress in that he will allow us to gently wipe his paws and groom him. The trainer was very confident that he'll be ok but I'm still worried really. I cannot imagine him being ok with being professionally groomed or having a proper vets examination without a muzzle.
Most of the time we can head off the situations before the growling stage but sometimes not - he got back from a really muddy walk and needed his paws washed. He was ok initially then tried to jump out, my DH held him to steady him and he bit him on the hand.
I was wondering if anyone has encountered this behaviour before and if so what happened? We have 4 DC and while he has shown no direct aggression to them I am mindful of closely supervising them.
The vet said it's really unusual to get such behaviour in a young puppy and I am worried he'll grow into an aggressive adult.

Sorry forgot to add, there are also excellent groomers out there who will have dealt with this so don't think you alone need to 'fix' this before introducing your pup to a groomer. For e.g., my groomer partners with a canine behaviourist to get advice on how to handle trickier dogs.

Just make sure you choose a groomer carefully and are honest with them about they might be taking on so they can make an informed choice.

Just a thought, but do you need to pick up your dog? I have a 38kg GSDX, and couldn't pick him up if I tried. I can't think of a situation, though, where I'd need to pick him up, either. I generally think that people with small dogs have a tendency to manhandle them more than is necessary, just because they can. He may be small, but he's clearly telling you that he's not keen on being picked up. I'd take that as a cue to leave him on the floor.

Personally I would contact a registered qualified behaviourist and start as you mean to go on with this. The earlier the better.
You do have a tricky breed in terms of handling so I think it’s important to get on top of this now.

I had a dog who was seriously aggressive despite me having it from a puppy and doing everything right. Unfortunately early training and genetics play a massive part in how your puppy will turn out despite when people say all they need is ‘love’ and training
Did you handle the parents at all?

Thanks all for your thoughts. Part of me feels uncomfortable with the telling off which is why we haven't because pretty much every modern dog training guide suggests not to. But equally there are times when I feel it might be appropriate but I shall have a careful think and consult our trainer.
Years ago, dogs were always told off and I don't remember there being big consequences from it. Surely a mother would grab a pup by the scruff to tell it off?
We will continue to work with the counter conditioning. He can do it beautifully when we're doing the exercise but i feel like it doesn't translate into real life situations. Maybe it will in time? It's very difficult to always have my pot of treats at the ready all day. An example was untangling his legs from his lead earlier which made him growl and lunge but yet last night he was sprawled out next to me on the floor for a belly rub and climbed on my lap for a cuddle. He is a lovely dog but everything is on his terms.

@greyhorses we met the parents and they were fine. Dad was very friendly, mum fine but aloof which is not uncommon in the breed.
Our trainer we saw is highly regarded and takes vet referrals for behavioural therapy so I'm pretty confident we're seeing someone decent. I would say the methods work in that we are probably only getting 2 episodes of growling and biting per day- that is because we are getting very good at predicting him though and if we weren't doing this it would probably be 15+ times.
My worry is that someone who doesn't know him will get bitten. I am pretty much watching him constantly.
He's fine with strangers but aloof but loves playing with other dogs.
We rarely pick him up, only when it's unavoidable. Ironically though he loves being picked up (on his own terms!).

15x, OP, I had not realised the frequency from your earlier posts. That sounds like a serious problem that must be very hard to live with. I can totally understand why you haven't wanted to think it was as bad as it seems, but it does sound difficult from your updates.

The best advice I have is to face right into it - talk to your trainer, your breeder, your vet as you have been doing. Maybe even suggest two or three of them jump on a conference call with you so that, as a group, you can plan how to tackle this if you think that would help prevent you getting lots of differing advice - a single, consistent approach has more chances of working than a scattered one.

In terms of applying training to real life scenarios, dogs are just not very good at taking one lesson and applying it to similar situations - known as generalisation. The idea is that by repeating it multiple times, in multiple differing scenarios you increase the chances of him doing that same behaviour when you really want him to. But it does take time.

As greyhorses has said, there are complex and multiple reasons for aggression so please don't think that this is somehow your fault. The pup sounds like it has very caring and understanding owners who are trying to do the best thing for it whilst balancing the needs of your family.

I'll just leave this for your reading: dogdiscoveries.com/scruff-shaking-dogs-for-discipline/

Has he been neutered yet?

You never tell him off! He needs a good firm No! As soon as he starts growling. He needs you to take the lead in all things. He's a terrier with a strong mind! He should not be allowed to walk up/down stairs or through doors ahead of you. He should be taught to sit before meals, before treats, before going in the garden etc. No! At all transgressions! Made to get down as soon as he is naughty. And of course, loads of praise when he does as you ask. I also think muzzle when going to vets or having to handle him or when he's in the car. I speak as the owner of an aggressive JRT.

Your sentence 'everything is on his terms' nails it OP. He needs firm gentle discipline and boundaries. So, he gets sent to his bed when you eat. You invite him onto the sofa, He isn't allowed in your bed. Discipline and boundaries will help him relax out of his leadership position in the household and reduce his aggression levels. Make him softer! Ignore everyone who says I'm talking old fashioned nonsense. I'm coming from the position of an owner of a seriously aggressive terrier whose behaviour has improved 100% since we took control back

Sorry joystir59 but although I agree with some of what you have said, stuff like always going through doors ahead of your dog is old-fashioned nonsense! You want a dog who responds to you and wants to please you - you have clearly done great work with your dog but we've had similar issues with our boy (not a terrier but very smart and quite stubborn) and making him wait to go through a door would have made no difference whatsoever. There are times when I want him to go in first so that I can then bring shopping in without him underfoot!
OP, also please don't listen to anyone who advocates any sort of adversive training (grabbing by the scruff of the neck etc), that only contributes to further aggression down the line. There is a very good FB group called Reactive Dogs that you might want to look at - it has accredited trainers on board and the advice and support is fantastic

Dog much better behaved more relaxed happier more affectionate, sleeps better, more playful, we are more bonded. Walk my shoes before you criticise

FoxesAreFabulous- sorry, I have to pick your door nonsense up. There is more than one reason why people should walk through a door first. And it has very little to do with old-school dog training.
So when you teach your dog to go through a door last:
You ensure that you are in control of your dog. No running off or tugging on the lead no jumping around...
Your dog has learned wait for you to open the door and greet any visitors...
You teach your dog the all important wait (& sit) command - this will not just allow you to lock / unlock your front door but it will also reinforce training for other situations when out and about.
You won't be tripping over your dog as it tries to squeeze ahead of you through doors, on stairs or narrow paths when out and about.

So you see, going through a door first may be out dated nonsense but it's still a great daily training opportunity for you and your dog...

My pup was very similar as a baby. Used to growl and bite an awful lot. It got to the stage where she was drawing blood and it was terrible - she very almost went back to breeder. Thank goodness we didn’t as she is now an absolute dream to own and hasn’t so much as growled for years. Hers was a mixture of various things but essentially it all came down to just being a puppy, being constantly tired and pushing boundaries!

For what it’s worth, everyone has a different view on dog training, and everyone thinks their way is the absolute best way and nothing else will work half as well. Your current trainer sounds brilliant, and much more qualified I’m sure than most of the people replying!

Have faith and follow your instructors guidance and be patient! I’m sure given a little hard work it will all come together perfectly.

Yes and it wasn’t a happy ending.

Puppy was six months old when we got him from the highly recommended Crufts champion breeder and I strongly suspect she knew he was aggressive. He bit dh within five minutes of being in the house and spent the next two years drawing blood from numerous people (mainly dh).

I spent two years going to various qualified behaviourists inc a university professor at £160 per appt. we did everything we were told. Never told the dog off, positive reinforcement, got dh to spend time giving the dog treats, etc. Came to a head when he ripped dh’s eyebrow off his face and I took the dog to the vet the following day. The dog did improve with me and was always ok with dd but was nasty with anyone else. In our case it was fear aggression and resource guarding (with dd and me being the resources he was guarding).

A number of things.

Get him checked for tooth pain, joint pain etc by a good vet. Properly -all over.

Then any snarl, bite, growl, immediately -put in a crate. Ignore totally. If necessary put a sheet over it and totally ignore him.

Sounds mad, but if he does something you don't like -bark and growl at him. Put your dog in the 'submit pose' (with gloves if necessary), on his side and gently but firmly hold him down-you don't need to hurt the dog to do this or hit or hurt him.

Imagine you have a toddler trying to hit you -what would you do -I would have the child sit between my legs facing away from me and then hold them gently but firmly until they 'give'.

Teach the dog its place. PM if you want more help.

Puppies learn a lot from mum and siblings in the first twelve weeks of their lives,essentially he has missed out on nearly a third of this precious time when boundaries are learnt.they shouldn't leave their mum before twelve weeks.
He is growling to tell you something.
I appreciate he has been checked by the vet,but (am sure not the case but worth keeping in back of mind)brain rumours in dogs can cause unpredictable behaviour.however if you're is growling in certain circumstances only it is unlikely to be that and he is communicating with you.
Ask breeders if an incident happened with your pup that could have traumatised him.
Good luck,I hope you manage to sort things out.

I agree with Amaya.

Dogs are pack animals. The wild dog pack has a hierarchy, in which every member has its place. The pack leaders do not tolerate any nonsense from subordinates.

A pet dog’s family is its pack. For the dog to grow up well-adjusted it needs to clearly understand its position in the pack. At the bottom.

In this situation, the pup has learned that it can get away with growling, snarling and biting when it decides things aren’t to its liking. It needs to learn that such behaviour is unacceptable and has unpleasant consequences, such as a telling-off, confiscation of toys, or a period on the doggy ‘naughty step’, or whatever sanction is appropriate. Correction should be immediate and sharp, as it would be in the natural pack environment.

I think that there is a tendency to confuse the move away from dominance theory and the flaws in it with a notion that can't tell your dog off. I may not think my dog is displaying dominance by jumping up on sofa uninvited, rushing food bowl, growling over a toy/food but neither do I think it is acceptable. It's basic animal behaviour that if they exhibit a behaviour (growl) that gets them a positive reward (keeping their toy/not being put off sofa etc etc) then they will learn that association and continue it.

Dogs need boundaries whether you believe it's about dominance or just chancing their luck. I think it is expecting too much of them to think they will learn purely by positive reinforcement alone. I accept we can't mimic the body language between dogs but a mother dog wouldn't teach her pups by praise alone so why would it work for us?

I have always had terriers and in my experience if you give an inch they will take 100 miles. I am firm with my dogs right from puppyhood but that doesn't mean I have to shake them my the scruff. I give loads of praise but they are expected to learn what they are not allowed to do. From the day they come home mouthing is not permitted, they are trained to wait before approaching their food, are not permitted on furniture without being asked and they learn that we can take toys and food away, the majority of times it being returned. If they were to growl (unless understandable ie if the kids had behaved incorrectly towards them/they were startled etc) too right they would be told off. A change in tone of voice and body language says a lot.

I still think this is a very young puppy but if the OP is confident that there is no medical issue then I would absolutely be setting stricter bounderies and telling off.

Please don't alpha roll your dog, tell it off for growling or try to bully it into thinking you are pack leader.

Where are these so called wild dog packs?! They don't exist!

Dogs are not pack animals and don't need to know who is boss. We control every aspect of their lives.

What Wolfie said.

I had a trainer grab my dog by the scruff as a pup after she went for another pup in a stressful situation. Both dogs were on leads, no reason to be so forceful at all. I utterly believe this has caused no end of problems and made the situation far worse.

BonnieF Can you point to a credible source for wild dogs having a strict hierarchy of power because every single respected (as in, peer reviewed) dog study or author I have ever read says they do not. In fact, the main source of the original statement that there is was L David Mech, based on a wolf study he did decades ago and he has since come back to say his original study was flawed and so the conclusions of there being a hierarchy were wrong.

All there seems to be is the usual respect of children for their parents while they are still young, Once grown, that greatly diminishes with most children leaving the family unit soon after to go it alone.

There is also no science I have come across to suggest dogs view humans as their 'pack'. In fact, there is little evidence that domestic dogs (even those gone feral) have any concept of forming a pack at all. I lived in India for 18 months where there are millions of feral dogs and none of them appeared to be in anything resembling a pack. Instead, I always saw them alone or (occasionally) in pairs unless they were bitches with litters. Even wolf packs in the wild are revealed to be family units when studied closely - made up of parents and the last few generations of litters.

Actually a pup which doesn’t leave its mum till 12 weeks old is more likely to be under socialised and have fear issues. I always thought 8 weeks is the ideal time.

And Cesar Milan used to alpha roll dogs and has been totally discredited.

Oops4 I totally endorse everything you say. It is fine to use a sharp assertive corrective tone to get a pup to pay attention and understand where its boundaries are. Our 7kg rescue JRT was ruling the house and biting us when we were listening to the 'you can't tell a dog off' brigade.