Has anyone any experience of a puppy with increasingly aggressive tendencies?

[ladyandthechocolate]

We collected our miniature schnauzer puppy at 8.5 weeks old and he is now 15 weeks. We spent a long time finding a breeder and have had dogs before.
He is a lovely puppy and so good in many ways, affectionate, smart and calm but very stubborn. We use clicker training and he picks things up quickly.
We first started to notice him growling a bit very soon after we got him mainly when lifting him out of the car or up the step into the house (it's a big drop). This gradually extended to him growling, snarling and biting whenever doesn't want to do something i.e. Wiping his feet, moving him away from the dirty dishwasher, in/out of the car. We can no longer use a harness on him and he'll even growl when we clip and unclip his lead. He would snarl and bite if we removed food but obviously we don't do that- we have always been respectful of him but equally, treated him as a dog and not a baby.
It came to a head this week when I took him for his third set of jabs and he lost the plot and totally went for the vet when she went to lift him onto her table.
We have had a one to one with a trainer last week in addition to the puppy classes we are going to. He showed us some counter conditioner techniques to get him used to the kind of handling he isn't comfortable with. We've been practising these all week and I think he's made some good progress in that he will allow us to gently wipe his paws and groom him. The trainer was very confident that he'll be ok but I'm still worried really. I cannot imagine him being ok with being professionally groomed or having a proper vets examination without a muzzle.
Most of the time we can head off the situations before the growling stage but sometimes not - he got back from a really muddy walk and needed his paws washed. He was ok initially then tried to jump out, my DH held him to steady him and he bit him on the hand.
I was wondering if anyone has encountered this behaviour before and if so what happened? We have 4 DC and while he has shown no direct aggression to them I am mindful of closely supervising them.
The vet said it's really unusual to get such behaviour in a young puppy and I am worried he'll grow into an aggressive adult.

Google the premack principle which states a high probability behaviour will reinforce a low probability behaviour, much like the idea of your mother telling you to eat your greens before you are allowed your pudding. In a dog training example, the dog must walk nicely at your side before being allowed to sniff the tree, (so sniffing the tree is a 'reward' for the dog for walking next to you). You can control their sniffing (obviously not air scenting, but actual stuff your nose into the smell, sniffing) by using a lead.

Time out every time- zero tolerance.

Time out is time wasted.

“honestly given that it's a natural instinctive behaviour”

Well so is eating, or chasing... or whatever it is you’re using as a reward.

Btw, we are not aggressive toward our dog. A firm 'bahhrr' isn't shouting. We never grab the scruff of his neck and would expect to be severely bitten if I 'alpha rolled' him. Discipline and making him work for treats makes him calm and relaxed. What's not to like. Reading all the crap about 'do not tell a dog off' and 'there is no such thing as a pack/leader' got us to the point where our 7kg rescue JRT was biting, snarling, barking and running around the house constantly. Running us and the house in fact. Thank you very much. Q

There IS no such thing as a pack leader. The very person who came up with dominance theory now admits it's wrong.

Well so is eating, or chasing... or whatever it is you’re using as a reward

Well yes but the whole point of a reward is to heighten the natural behaviour isn't it eg high value snacks, a toy rarely brought out. I just struggle to see how sniffing; a constantly occurring action can be controlled and made terribly exciting enough to be used as a reward. But I am sure you'll come up with something for me to think about

Google 'Premack'

“I just struggle to see how sniffing; a constantly occurring action can be controlled and made terribly exciting enough to be used as a reward.“

I bet you already use it as a reward, most people do, they just haven’t thought out what they’re doing.

You’re walking, your dog lunges to sniff a lamppost or a patch of grass and you go, hoy, heel or walk nice or whatever it is you say and you make the dog walk at your speed and then they get to sniff it when they’re walking nicely by your side.

Hmm, I suppose you're right. I do let him do things that he wants to after he's shown wanted behaviour. I'd never really been aware of it. You really do learn something new every day

Moving past all the behaviour theory being passed around.

ladyandthechocolate - You haven't mentioned much about what goes on in your puppy classes? What slant does your trainer have? Are they a positive slanted trainer? Are you doing basic obedience work?

From personal experience, if you don't already have a command put in for 'bed', I'd advise this might be one of the most helpful things you could do. And a 'stay' would help too. Then have a bed in each room you will be in with your dog, even if it's just a small pad or blanket. Teach your dog the 'bed' command, and this will allow you to get past the biting problem. You won't need to physically engage with your dog, you can send him to his bed, then continue with your task, using the 'stay' command.

So in a situation like your dishwasher, rather than trying to stop him licking the stuff in it, you could send him to bed. In a situation where someone needs to get in a cupboard or drawer, send him to bed. Even if you only ask him to be there for a minute or two, it avoids the issue.

I taught my dogs as puppies, starting at puppy classes, these basic commands, and they really do help. It was taught using treat rewards, best done under a good trainer if it's not something you're familiar with.

You have picked a breed well-known for being a bit of a challenge. There was one in my youngest dogs puppy class - which made my rather boisterous puppy look like a positive saint! I've come across quite a few over the years - lovely dogs, but definitely not for the novice or nervous owner.

So I haven't checked this thread for a few days- what a lot of replies.
I thought we were getting somewhere until this morning when one of my DSs was gently stroking the puppy while I was watching and he snarled and lunged in about half a second flat. No warning at all. That was the first incidence of this type of reaction in response to being smoothed. Now I really feel like I can't trust him at all.
Our puppy classes are based on positive reinforcement and up until last week we had never told him off. But we started to give a firm reprimand at certain times and it seemed to be working. We are continuing with the counter conditioning and he is great when we're doing it but I'm not sure it is helping overall but we probably need to give it more time.
I feel like I can't take him on the school run now, in case another child strokes him and he bites.

@lavenderhues Ours stories sound quite similar. Our vet was very concerned and said she'd never seen aggression like it in such a young dog.

Good god don’t alpha roll your pup and don’t shout at it for growling!
He doesn’t like to be picked up, most dogs don’t but tolerate it ok. So work on the handling like you have been.
Utter nonsense that domestic dogs are like wolves and wolf pack theory has been disproven.

When my dog was a puppy I used a noise as distraction. I said ah-ah and gave a treat. I carried treats in my pockets and did this loads of times a day randomly. He soon learned to stop what he was doing when I made the noise and I’d give a treat.
Puppies haven’t a clue what they’re supposed to do and shouting at it means nothing to them except scare them.

My dog is a schnauzer cross and is a clever and stubborn little thing, it would have made no difference what I shouted at him so distraction and positive reinforcement was the only way to get him to do anything.

Get the kids to leave him alone. Have you had him checked for pain? Many people miss signs that dogs aren't happy. Lip licking etc.

Personally, it may not be terribly popular but there is no way I would keep this puppy.
No way.

If it's a reputable breeder you should be able to return him.

I'm with your vet, I also would think it extremely concerning for such a young dog to show such extreme aggression.

Personally, I think boundaries and discipline are essential, I have never been shy to reprimand my dog.
She's an absolute delight and has never shown any aggression to people.
The exception in my opinion is where the dog is acting nasty because it's frightened where discipline could make it worse.
But in my opinion, it doesn't sound like your dog is acting out because he's scared.

I would not keep a dog that attacked with no apparent warning or reason.
No.
Definitely not with children either.

is he in pain when being lifted

I would definitely wonder about this. Aggression like this from such a young puppy with (as far as you know) no negative experiences very worrying,

Have you consulted the breeder for advice?

Do you think it is too soon to neuter him? Just wondering if maybe he has too much testosterone and it's making him aggressive? Who does your dog see as the master in your household? I would suggest they take the lead in disciplining and training the dog, but it will need intensive 121 training for at least a week. I have always found a firm 'no' is enough to startle the dog into paying attention and encouraging them to stop what they are doing. But it needs consistency, and if they do stop what they are doing, then you reward them with a treat. Does he sit and come to his name on demand? Is he house trained?

Awful advice. Don't neuter a 15 week old puppy.

It is really very, very unusual for a dog to give 'no warning' before snapping or biting. There are signs to be seen, you just need to read them. There's also something called trigger stacking, where an apparently innocuous situation (to the observer) can be the 'last straw' to the dog and result in a bite.

yaletowndogtraining.com/2017/03/18/dogs-not-bite-blue/

And also see:

(I'm not saying you or your children are doing the things in the video, by the way, but just look at the dogs' expressions and body language)

But: this pup is fifteen weeks old. Fifteen weeks! There are things in
my fridge older than that...

You really need to get a vet check done, and then somebody in to actually see the pup, see the situations that spark this 'aggression' and give you a proper assessment of what's going on. Hopefully that person will be somebody who watches the interaction between your family and the pup and reacts accordingly, with a force-free solution.

Neutering only reduces sex-based aggression. He is far to young to be reacting to a sexual impulse.

Neutering will not help, and will adversely affect his physical, as well as his mental, growth and development.

OP - did you get him from a registered breeder, or an advert online (Gumtree, Pets4Homes etc)? While there are genuine advertisers on these sites, it is also very easy for unscrupulous sellers to offload ill or badly-bred puppies.