Has anyone any experience of a puppy with increasingly aggressive tendencies?

[ladyandthechocolate]

We collected our miniature schnauzer puppy at 8.5 weeks old and he is now 15 weeks. We spent a long time finding a breeder and have had dogs before.
He is a lovely puppy and so good in many ways, affectionate, smart and calm but very stubborn. We use clicker training and he picks things up quickly.
We first started to notice him growling a bit very soon after we got him mainly when lifting him out of the car or up the step into the house (it's a big drop). This gradually extended to him growling, snarling and biting whenever doesn't want to do something i.e. Wiping his feet, moving him away from the dirty dishwasher, in/out of the car. We can no longer use a harness on him and he'll even growl when we clip and unclip his lead. He would snarl and bite if we removed food but obviously we don't do that- we have always been respectful of him but equally, treated him as a dog and not a baby.
It came to a head this week when I took him for his third set of jabs and he lost the plot and totally went for the vet when she went to lift him onto her table.
We have had a one to one with a trainer last week in addition to the puppy classes we are going to. He showed us some counter conditioner techniques to get him used to the kind of handling he isn't comfortable with. We've been practising these all week and I think he's made some good progress in that he will allow us to gently wipe his paws and groom him. The trainer was very confident that he'll be ok but I'm still worried really. I cannot imagine him being ok with being professionally groomed or having a proper vets examination without a muzzle.
Most of the time we can head off the situations before the growling stage but sometimes not - he got back from a really muddy walk and needed his paws washed. He was ok initially then tried to jump out, my DH held him to steady him and he bit him on the hand.
I was wondering if anyone has encountered this behaviour before and if so what happened? We have 4 DC and while he has shown no direct aggression to them I am mindful of closely supervising them.
The vet said it's really unusual to get such behaviour in a young puppy and I am worried he'll grow into an aggressive adult.

Rain. Oh the rain. I take mine out on a lead. She isn't keen on the wet!

Can you remember the flintstones when they put the Dino out and it comes straight back in...well we have a dog flap and as fast as she's put out,she's back in through it...on a dry day she's in and out like a yo yo..but oh how she hates the rain.

I may be reading more into this than there is, but it seems interesting that those people who are suggesting using aggressive tactics, 'growling at your a dog', 'shouting ah-ah', using 'dominance theory tactics' all seem to have experience of aggressive dogs....almost as though using those techniques may have caused the dog to act aggressively as a defence mechanism.
Personally, i would better manage my home situation, e.g. now you know licking in the dishwasher is a trigger for him, make sure he doesn't have access to the open dishwasher.

Also, if he is over aroused by people coming to the house, (and therefore more likely to growl/bite), then remove him from the busy areas, (before people arrive), contain him in a crate or behind a stair gate so that he is not in a position that he cannot cope with.
At this stage it's about managing his environment to keep him under threshold whilst you work on his training and the counter conditioning techniques.
It's all very well saying 'tell him off', but firstly you don't know for sure what he's learning when you scare him (by 'telling him off') and secondly dogs can't 'do' a no. Teach him what you want, e.g. to come happily away from the open dishwasher when you call him - relatively easy to teach with a pot of treats and a calm environment (hint, start with an empty dishwasher, it's easier to come away from that).
Please think very carefully before following some of the advice on here, it's very easy to damage a puppy with scare tactics, less easy to damage one with kindness and thoughtful training.
I don't tell my dogs off, if they do something i don't want them to do, i manage their environment until i can train an alternative behaviour. Yes, it takes longer than shouting 'no', but it works (and i am not posting about how i shout at my aggressive dog).

My neighbours had a poodle. Treated it like a newborn baby from the day he arrived. Ended up totally out of control to the point where he cornered them upstairs and they had to lock themselves in the bedroom and phone for help.
Used to hear it terrorising them in the garden, so could see it coming but they refused to listen.
The dog ended up being put to sleep.
Killing them with kindness and refusing to chastise is probably one of the most damaging approaches an owner can take with a young dog.
They need guidance and discipline. Just like their wild counterparts.

Again, where are these wild counterparts?

I have a four month old puppy here at the moment, a GSD x. Under no circumstances will I be growling at her or grabbing her by the scruff - how would that end in six months time when this is my only training method she's a large powerful dog?

This morning she nipped my elbow and I yelped and moved away. End of. She started to chew the doormat, I said Ah-Ah and led her away with something else to chew. Not that hard.

I don't think I'm a particularly good trainer,but have multiple dogs who are calm in the house. Realistically we all have those times when we are simultaneously making dinner, answering the phone, taking the bin out, doing homework....maybe this is not the moment to try and train your puppy, maybe half an hour in the playpen with some toys is the best solution. I don't actually think you can expect to teach a puppy to not jump up, ignore food, not steal shoes, not chase the cat, not chew the cushion, not to get in the dishwasher et al, all at one time....

@LilCamper I think the 'wild counterparts' might be the children...

When will this alpha rubbish die off. It’s been disproven so many times yet people still spout this crap

This!

And in answer to a couple of posters, our dog now looks at me when we reach the front door, to see whether I want him to go first or to wait - so yes, it's a good training opportunity for him in terms of listening to what I ask him to do, but always making him wait to let me go first so that he sees I am dominant is a load of BS.

And the Cesar Milan school of dog-training is well and truly discredited. Any owner who thinks that putting their dog on the floor to teach them better behaviour is a good training technique shouldn't be at all surprised when their dog eventually bites them.
All training should be force-free and reward-based, teaching dogs that they have choices and helping them to make the right choice (rewarded) rather than the wrong one (no reward). This doesn't mean you can't have a signal that indicates to your dog that they're doing something you don't want them to do - our boy knows that 'ah-ah-ah' means he needs to leave something alone but we tend to only use this when he's about to pick up something revolting in the park or, as last night, put his paw in an open pot of paint

Yes, using a 'positive interrupter' noise that you have taught (i.e. make your noise 'ah-ah' or whatever, then throw the dog a treat, repeat frequently) will soon teach your dog that saying (not shouting) 'ah-ah' will precede a treat. They very soon learn to stop what they're doing when they hear 'ah-ah' and look to you for something good.
That's completely different to shouting 'no', and potentially scaring them, particularly if they associate the scare with something else, for example, if you shout 'no' 'cos you think the dog will jump up at a visiting child, you have no way of knowing that the dog is not becoming nervous of visiting children, rather than the jumping up behaviour, 'cos whenever a child walks in, the dog gets shouted at. So manage the environment whilst you teach an appropriate behaviour. Have the dog on a lead when people come in and teach a sit.

In all honesty, Earthmover, either your neighbours are especially trigger-happy or there was something else going on with that poodle that it required putting to sleep. To put a dog down because it lacked boundaries as a puppy is extreme to say the least - especially when so many dogs many the transition from feral/street dogs to well behaved home pets, even despite missing out on the chastisement in puppyhood that you think is required.

Interestingly, the American Guide Dog Association saw a huge uplift in the pass rate for their dogs when they moved away from traditional, corrective-based training to modern, reward-based methods. When they used methods that featured punishing/scolding the dog for doing something wrong and replaced it with praise/reward for doing something right they not only saw the increase in pass rate from around 45% to between 60-80% they also saw a reduction in the time it takes to reliably train a guide dog - mainly because dogs that are not scolded tend to have the greater confidence required to offer new behaviours, some of which are useful and can be captured, rewarded and thus repeated. Dogs that are corrected for doing something wrong tend to offer less new, novel behaviours and so require more 'wrong attempts' to get a right.

For these reasons, there are now so many professional dog training organisations that have rejected corrective training methods - even when the consequences of the dog getting it wrong are high (e.g. bomb disposal where the dog and handler's life depends on the dog detecting correctly). Despite initial resistance by trainers that had used the old methods and knew they could get them to work - each organisation in turn has (like the A Guide Dogs) experimented with reward-based training and found it resulted in better training outcomes. Even the Gun Dog Trust just announced they are moving to force-free methods; gun dog training has traditionally been rooted in traditional, force-based training methods to get the behaviours required.

All all cases, the dogs still face punishments but they are negative in nature (as in, taking something away the dog likes, such as attention, the chance to move forward on a lead, play) rather than positive (as in, adding something the dislikes, such as a scolding, smack, yank of a lead, pull of a collar).

“Killing them with kindness and refusing to chastise is probably one of the most damaging approaches an owner can take with a young dog.“

Nobody is advising killing with kindness, they’re talking about scientifically proven behavioural techniques.

Behavioural science isn’t people going, aw, don’t be mean to the doggy

I have 2 jonson bull dog pups now 12 weeks old male and female ..the female is very aggresive at times even as a pup she is the bigger of both and already has drawn blood from the males ear and face ...i was adviced by my vet that at the moment they are trying to find there place in the pack as such and not to over think or worry to much about it ..i am experiamced on big dogs as i have always had french mastiffs ,however never had a pup that was aggresive ?

Pack theory is outdated. It isn't generally recommended to get two puppies together. Litter mate syndrome is a real risk.

I agree, no reputable breeder would sell two puppies together.
And especicially not a male and female incase the new owner intended to breed them...

Personally, I would not keep two dogs that fought severely enough to draw blood.

Some will. To owners who have the time and adult manpower to train and exercise and feed them separately. Who understand the risk and maybe have experience of that breed.
I wouldn't take two on. One puppy is enough work for me!!

I have no intention of breeding them ...and when i went to see the pups it was only one i went to get however ...i fell in love with both and now them ..they do not fight over food or my effection ...the male appears to attack the female when we are out walking ,i did contact the breeder and he insists it will pass as they get older ,however he did say walk them for the moment seprate,and my vet disagrees she said they are both there for the duration so they must become close .. i plan to get the bitch dressed at 5 and half months ,the vet said they do prefer her to go into season however she would do it as they are brother and sister

Not sure what a Jonson bull dog is. But that's very early to spay.
They must become close? Or one could kill the other. Vet sounds clueless and breeder sounds disreputable.
You need to research litter mate syndrome.

I see the treat bag scatty bunch down the park chasing their overweight bolshy black labs round the field trying to tempt them back with another dog biscuit.
Works a treat. Everytime.
Mines no angel, but shes pretty obedient when push comes to shove and I walk away from her. Never fails to follow. Never a pocket of bribes to be found either.

“Mines no angel, but shes pretty obedient when push comes to shove and I walk away from her”

You should try positive reinforcement then, mine recalls instantly, but then I don’t try to tempt him back with treats, that would be stupid because it’s not how it works...

Behavioural science isn’t people going, aw, don’t be mean to the doggy

No, but as it is watered down to the family pet owner it can be misinterpreted in that way, which is incredibly dangerous.

Nowhere near as dangerous as dominance and pack theory where you’ve created a situation where a dog is being deliberately confused and shut down without the original issue ever being dealt with.

Nowhere near as dangerous
What are you basing that on?

I assume you’ve no real experience of dogs with behavioural issues?

The worst that happens with inept positive training is that a dog will carry on behaving as it is and because it’s practising it, it becomes learned behaviour that is then harder to get rid of.

With a dog that’s been punished for displaying warning signs... that can turn into a silent time bomb, it still has the issue it had, but you now can’t tell when it’s likely to react.

No I don’t. We just have pets. I’d be interested to see the research. We have always had dogs and always reprimanded them for bad behaviour. Never had a problem.