Has anyone any experience of a puppy with increasingly aggressive tendencies?

[ladyandthechocolate]

We collected our miniature schnauzer puppy at 8.5 weeks old and he is now 15 weeks. We spent a long time finding a breeder and have had dogs before.
He is a lovely puppy and so good in many ways, affectionate, smart and calm but very stubborn. We use clicker training and he picks things up quickly.
We first started to notice him growling a bit very soon after we got him mainly when lifting him out of the car or up the step into the house (it's a big drop). This gradually extended to him growling, snarling and biting whenever doesn't want to do something i.e. Wiping his feet, moving him away from the dirty dishwasher, in/out of the car. We can no longer use a harness on him and he'll even growl when we clip and unclip his lead. He would snarl and bite if we removed food but obviously we don't do that- we have always been respectful of him but equally, treated him as a dog and not a baby.
It came to a head this week when I took him for his third set of jabs and he lost the plot and totally went for the vet when she went to lift him onto her table.
We have had a one to one with a trainer last week in addition to the puppy classes we are going to. He showed us some counter conditioner techniques to get him used to the kind of handling he isn't comfortable with. We've been practising these all week and I think he's made some good progress in that he will allow us to gently wipe his paws and groom him. The trainer was very confident that he'll be ok but I'm still worried really. I cannot imagine him being ok with being professionally groomed or having a proper vets examination without a muzzle.
Most of the time we can head off the situations before the growling stage but sometimes not - he got back from a really muddy walk and needed his paws washed. He was ok initially then tried to jump out, my DH held him to steady him and he bit him on the hand.
I was wondering if anyone has encountered this behaviour before and if so what happened? We have 4 DC and while he has shown no direct aggression to them I am mindful of closely supervising them.
The vet said it's really unusual to get such behaviour in a young puppy and I am worried he'll grow into an aggressive adult.

Never a pocket of bribes to be found either
No, there's a world of difference between a bribe 'here doggy, do you want this biscuit?'. 'Nah, i'll carry on chasing with my doggy friend'. Compared to a conditioned response trained using a reward based system.

@NotTakenUsername nowhere near as dangerous. What are you basing that on.
If nothing else, surely you can see that trying to alpha roll a GSD that is in a highly aroused state would be asking for trouble and the potentially inexperienced owner would be in a very dangerous position?

I don’t even know what GSD stands for. As I said, we, like many dog owners, are not experts.
I just know we have always had dogs since I can remember. For us, dogs are family members for life: puppy to death. But they are dogs. Raised in our family as important living creatures, but most certainly nowhere near as important as the humans. The children reprimand them as do the adults. They are temporarily excluded if their behaviour is unacceptable. I’m not even shy about a gentle tap to the bum if required.
They get lots of love, exercise, comfort, food, healthcare access, mental stimulation, well groomed... but they are dogs and are expected to behave as such.
Never had a problem.

GSD = German shepherd.

Most dogs are pretty forgiving of bad training methods, it benefits them generally to please people so they do, it’s totally different when you’re dealing with a dog that’s in a state where it’s willing to bite.

I haven't read to the end but wanted to throw in our experience.

Yes we've had this. 8 week old mini poodle went for the vet - the vet was really concerned and said it was very unusual behaviour in a pup of that age. She was very very growly with my young children and bit them aggressively a lot - just things like walking past her and also like yours, when she was thwarted / couldn't get her own way. Being told to get off the sofa for example! We had about 90 million trainer appointments and it really did come down to the wire as to whether we rehomed her.

I'm afraid all the positive reinforcement in the world didn't work even a little bit. The only thing that made a difference was a bollocking. I didn't tell her off for growling but for biting / aggressive snapping I took her by the scruff said no firmly and removed her from the situation. The other thing I did was have her on a long line all the time so I could essentially make her do as I asked and also intervene quickly in situations I didn't like. In fact even now in situations I think she might get over excited in (the garden when the children are playing!) i put her on a long line so I can grab her.

She's a year old now and a totally different dog. still somewhat prone to barking when she's nervous or overexcited. And I wouldn't ever allow the children to be too full on in their affection - calm gentle strokes only (I know that should be the standard but I have really drilled them on it and they are very respectful of her boundaries).
My personal view is that she has very dominant little personality and needs firm boundaries but with those she is a lovely little dog 🙂

I have always sharply told my dogs "NO!" for unwanted behaviours. I've had a GSD/rough collie cross, a JRT, a Miniature Schnauzer, a GSD and currently a Scottie - real tendency to stubbornness. They all had lovely behaviour and bonded beautifully with us as a family and I won't be changing how I do things any time soon. I do think there's a place for sternness and it is very different to aggressive discipline.

NotTakenUsername...

Roll and Unshelm, 1997 - Dogs that were trained by hitting or “shaking” tended to have a history of biting other dogs.

Hiby et al., 2004 - Using punishment positively correlated with problem behaviors.

Blackwell et al., 2008 - Fear and aggression problems higher in dogs that received any type of punishment.

Herron et al., 2009 - 31% dogs trained with an alpha roll showed aggressive behaviours afterwards; 38% of dogs forced to give up an item held in the mouth by physical manipulation showed aggressive behaviours afterwards; 43% of dogs trained with hitting or kicking; 26% of dogs shaken by the scruff; 29% of dogs forced into a dominance down

Arhant et al., 2010 - punishments related to higher aggression and excitability scores in small and large dogs.
Relationship between punishment and aggression stronger in small dogs.

Rooney and Cowan, 2011 - Using physical punishment: dogs less interactive during play and less likely to interact with experimenter (compared to not using physical punishment at all).
Dog performance in novel task positively correlated with total rewards delivered and owner patience.

Casey et al., 2014 - Use of punishment related to increased risk of aggression toward members of the family and toward unfamiliar people outside the house (odds ratio 2.8 and 2.2, respectively).

Would you like to see more?

lavenderhues that's incredibly sad. There are so many options before you grab a tiny puppy by the scruff :(

Most dogs are pretty forgiving of bad training methods, it benefits them generally to please people so they do

Phewf. So we’re happy, dogs happy, and no one is being attacked.
There you go op, you can use ‘good’ or ‘bad’ training methods and you’ll probably be ok - just however you do it, get that puppy under control before it gets too big.

@NotTakenUsername what a strange summing up...you have completely ignored all the links missbattenburg posted about the negative effects aggressive training can have on a dog.

I have never been aggressive with a dog. I personally believe that there is nothing as cruel as being wishy washy with a dog. It needs to know the boundaries. We reprimand bad behaviour and reward good behaviour.

Carrot and stick. Very logical, almost common sense - works very well, but doesn’t sell very many books!

Just for clarity, where the studies referred to punishment it covered anything from shouting upwards. Where they specify the punishment (e.g. shaking) they refer just to that particular method of punishment. Behavioural science will include anything undesirable to the dog as a form of punishment.

Yip. There most likely is a place for positive reinforcement training but I have a hard time accepting it being the one size fits all solution.
Your average dog owner is not trained in behaviorism and the average dog can live happily in a position where a certain degree of dominance is exerted.
I never hit my dog, but she does get stern warnings when her behaviour is unacceptable or puts herself in danger.
She's grown to be a well balanced, obedient 3 year old whippet that sticks to me like glue and has a happy confident demeanour... Despite the many many times she's been reprimanded in the past.

Fuck me. Do not do this!

Sounds mad, but if he does something you don't like -bark and growl at him. Put your dog in the 'submit pose' (with gloves if necessary), on his side and gently but firmly hold him down-you don't need to hurt the dog to do this or hit or hurt him.

Terrible advice and will only lead to a fearful, reactive dog.

I'm sorry you feel its sad bubble.
We were 6 months of "other options" and a set of stitches in so I didn't think it was that sad.
The vet described us as "pretty much at the end of the road" with her - you would never know that now. She's a delight 🙂 Though obviously it was a long training process and a hell of a lot of work in the meantime!!

Tuck me! Have i stepped back to the Koehler years? Will
People be advising filling digging holes and almost drowning pups next?!

If you are bribing a dog with food instead of using it as a conditioned reward quite honestly you are bloody clueless and need to do some research.

The world moves on, science moves on, dog training moves on....there is no excuse. I am 'only' an owner and understand the theories behind training including the quadrants.

What's the difference between the term bribing, where your dog follows commands with the expectation that it will be rewarded for compliance and conditioned reward?
Dreaming up a new term for the same set of actions doesn't make it somehow superior.
It's the same process.
Hope the dogs teeth get an extra brush for all these treats it's consuming between meals

Mines conditioned reward is a pat on the head and an enjoyable walk without chastising it. Far healthier.

“What's the difference between the term bribing, where your dog follows commands with the expectation that it will be rewarded for compliance and conditioned reward?”

Well bribes are offered upfront for starters...and you’d only always be offering a reward every time you want a behaviour while that behaviour is new.

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that positive rewards have to be food and that they are food separate from their meals.

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that positive rewards have to be food and that they are food separate from their meals.

I'll need to try that one. 'Sit Rover.. Because if you don't you'll not be getting that juicy bit of chicken in your dinner later'
Sounds plausible. Never seen it in practice though.

“'Sit Rover.. Because if you don't you'll not be getting that juicy bit of chicken in your dinner later'”

Um, if the concept of keeping food from meals to use at a later point is too complicated for you, I’m not really sure any of this conversation is worth having.

My dog does not and will not ever see a a few nuggets of James Wellbeloved as a training treat. I am always intrigued by these dogs that do. They must be hungry all the time surely? If that is a training treat for them. I was under the impression that high value treats would get the best training results. That's the advice I have read repeatedly and was given at puppy training.

Oh dear. Someone is totally missing the point. Rewards come in many shapes and forms. Not just food. Play, being allowed to sniff, given a favourite toy......

It just so happens I have two food orientated Labs. Neither of which are overweight because rewards are taken out of their daily food allowance.

This might be worth a read Dog Will Do Anything for Treats

Depends... what you’re training, where, on the dog, what their normal food is, what the dog regards as a high value reward...

A small amount of something that they consider high value that’s also pretty smelly mixed with their dry food can work quite well.

Well it surely depends on the dog doesn't it? Food is my dog's main motivator. He's a stubborn chap, rather dour at times and playing or retrieving toys is generally done on his terms and he prefers it at a certain time, mostly he's not interested. Not sure how I am supposed to control his sniffing and turn that into a treat and honestly given that it's a natural instinctive behaviour I am not sure I would want to control that and use it.