Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

I was shocked today to read that around 90% of people who are told that they will be having a child with Downs Syndrome, choose to abort. And that one in 30 of those children will not actually have Downs Syndrome. I know several children with Downs and I know how hard it can be to deal with their health issues and so on, but I could not value a growing baby any less because of this.

madamaz - there are many many laws which veto women's and men's choices over their own bodies, such as drug use laws.

I agree that if you completely outlawed abortion women would take dangerous measures into their own hands. I am completely anti-abortion, but I hold that as a personal opinion. The matter on which I would campaign would be to reduce the legal limit to 8 weeks. I can assure you I'm not woman-hating-scum. (I have to confess it's refreshing to get called that, people usually say I'm a rabid feminist )

I would disagree that reproductive control is the key to women's rights. I would say that legal status (i.e. a woman can't be 'owned') and political rights (i.e. a woman can't be subjugated) would be more important.

georgiemama, i dont know the figures but in comparison to the total number of abortions i would imagine the amount of people who use it as a method of contraception is reasonably low. do you honestly not think that woman are entitled to the choice? who else should decide when a woman has a baby but the woman herself?

Out of interest, Penpot, why 8 weeks?

Yup, Georgie, that's the important thing about human beings, being born. Do you celebrate your birthday or the date of your conception?

The majority of conceptions fail - as in don't result in a live birth (most of those very early on before people even know they are pregnant). It would be madness to insist a bundle of cells can over-ride the human rights of the mother, wouldn't it? Does a 7 week old foetus the size of a 5p coin have more those of an actual real, living and breathing woman? Does a 17 week old foetus, six inches long?

The ONLY person whose views matter is the woman who is carrying the pregnancy. She's the one who is most concerned and she's the one who has a fully-functioning central nervous system.

Another thing you often get with foetus-worshippers is that, despite their sentimental guff about 'babies' their interest in any other woman's baby stops the minute it's born. But then it's easy to get soppy about foetuses. They don't shit on the floor or answer back or fail their Alevels. And foetus-worshippers have little or no interest in actually making it easier for women with unplanned pregnancies to feel they can continue their pregnancies: ie a lot of antichoice campaigners are just as opposed to benefits for single mums or state-funded childcare.

well said Edam and Madamez.

watched this last night in tears .i always said that if i was to fall pregnant again by accident that i would have a termination but after watching this i would have to think again. i have 3 kids already but seeing how the abortion was performed really upset me.my little sister had a termination aged 15 at 13 weeks gestation at the time i was trying for a baby myself and was too wrapped up in myself to offer her the support,am feeling so sad for her now

bubble99-I think 8 weeks is when an embryo becomes a foetus. The heart's beat starts to move blood around and the foetus can respond to touch.

I think a lot of pro-life campaigns actively support mums with unwanted/unplanned pregnancies.

edam- it's not just a bunch of cells though is it? It's a growing living person. I think if you boil it down to rights like that, yes the woman will win. But it's not just about the rights because of what an abortion is and what the foetus, left alone, will become.

I fell pregnant using the the mini pill as i was breastfeeding.I have no idea to this day whether i took the pill correctly or whether it just failed.It haunts me to this day that perhaps i hadnt taken it correctly. However i was sleep deprieved with a young baby and i cant even remember having sex tbh.So when i found out i was in complete shock straight away i felt i didnt want to have this baby.I had complications with my first pregnancy and i just could face going through it again. I went to my GP straight away who told me to go away and think about it for a few wks as he thought id regret it.I wasnt even offered any counselling.It took me a few wks to organise some where priviate as i didnt know who else to speak to or turn to by which time i was 7wks.Even then i only saw one doctor and i had no real counselling before hand especially on how id might feel afterwards.I felt let down my GP didnt help me more as i was emotionally not myself with hormones etc.I wanted to want to have the baby if that makes sense but i couldnt.I never ever thought id be someone who'd have an abortion. But for some reason i could not have that baby i actually wanted to die as i felt so depressed. I was in floods of tears and could barely get myself out of bed.I just wish i had more help in talking things through. It was bad timing, bad circumstances, bad experiences etc but perhaps if i felt stronger and not so hormonal or emotional maybe i could got through it.

Not all women know they're pregnant until long after 8 weeks. I knew from the moment I missed my period, didn't wait around, had it done privately and I was still seven weeks gone. The average waiting time for a termination on the NHS is seven weeks. So realistically, you're condemning women to backstreet abortionists if they can't afford to pay to go private.

Penpot: but many pregancies don't become people due to natural causes. THat's one of the main reasons many people don't announce a PG to anyone but closest family till after about 12 weeks, because many (I think it's about a third) pregnancies simply fail before 12 weeks.
Oh, and 'active support' from pro-life charities, my arse. How many of them provide childcare, housing and job training for mothers? While adoption is a feasibile and valid choice for some women, making it a substitute for access to safe abortion is again making women into incubators for the benefit of other people.

Sorry, can I just clarify that if the law was reduced to 8 weeks (which I don't think it will be) I think the system would have to be overhauled so that women can get the care and help that they need sooner and with less hassle and more support. I would not wish to condemn any woman to a back street abortion. Just as I think it's terrible that women go though this at the moment without the support they need from health professionals.

What about Rape Victims or people who might die if they have the baby, or who have babies who will die young or have no chance at a lonog life. Would it be ok for these people to have abortions after 8 weeks PenPot?

Not read this long thread, but

"The average waiting time for a termination on the NHS is seven weeks"

That is really inexcusible. I don't understand the logic where it is murder if a premature newborn baby is deliberately killed but not if it is ended inside the womb. I don't know where the line is drawn but if an abortion is to be had it is better done early.

I kept my abortion secret. The only people that knew were me and xp, and the lady who cared for my other two dc whilst i went for the abortion.

It is so so easy to sit in judgement of people who have had this desicion to make but unless you hae been in this position, you will never nebver know just how hard it is.

I had an abortion because I felt I couldn't cope, I ewaited for one, just one person to tell me that I could cope, that they would help me and it would all be ok, but no one did, they all said it was the best thing etc. So i went through with it, got rid of a baby that I wanted, because everyone else made me think it was the right thing to do. It was right....for everyone else, not me.

I have never ever ever regretted anything more.

madamez - yes of course some pregnancies end in miscarriage. That doesn't affect the debate about intervention and termination though of what would be at the point of termination a normal pregnancy (unless the termination is for medical reasons).

this pro-life charity offers practical help and housing to women and babies.

As for women being "incubators for the benefit of other people" - well to be honest I feel like that anyway, whether i want the baby or not is irrelevant. If dh and I want children it's me who's going to get sick for 9 months (I had hyperemesis), me who has to go though the pain of childbirth and get my body completely wrecked and if I want to bf that has to be me too. Brilliant

Two close friends have had abortions and I was one of the only people they told - they knew I don't think it a good thing but would never presume to judge the choices another woman makes.

I could not watch that programme last night though.

Penpoteca. Yes. They've got 30 hostels. 30. Mmm, that's a lot.
It is a start, I will grant them that. But not all women with unplanned pregnancies want to live in a hostel (where they will undoubtedly be expected to be grateful and humble 24/7). It's good that they offer a resource to women who are desperate to continue their pregnancies but who will have no homes if they do so - but that doesn't justify campaigning to force women to continue unwanted pregnancies. Nothing does.

beaniesteve - i think the situations you mention are terrible for any woman to be in and I expect that the law would recognise that these are exceptions (as I think it does at the moment for terminations after 24 weeks - not 100% sure about that though).

I would never judge an individual woman for the decisions she has made. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to choose to have an abortion.

But I do think that it's important to debate where the law draws the line and if it's in the right place.

I'm watching this right now on iplayer. Can't belive the ''abortion call centre''. For some reason that has hit me hard, it all seems so impersonal.

I could post for hours after watching this, but must get to bed (good job really). One thing it made me recall is an episode of sex and the city where miranda asks carrie about the abortion she had 13 years before.

"How long did it take you to get over it?"

"Any day now..."

So why are the multiplying cells of a rape victim or a severely disabled foetus not given the same respect as any other foetus by some people? This is what I don't understand about people who will happily impose one limit for one foetus and different limit for a foetus which is as far as any one knows a healthy one - it seems wrong to change the goalposts when circumstances of the conception are different.

It's not ok to kill any foetus. I don't think many women aborting their babies would think it is "ok". It is their choice though (whatever the circumstances) and rightfully so.