Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

fuck you Ronshar, how offensive. how offensive, it's just not possible.

One of the best things I ever did was to suggest to a patient of mine that she consider terminating a pregnancy.I won't go into too many details but suffice it to say she was using speed and crack (despite knowing she was pregnant - same as she had done with her two previous pregnacies)and her bf was a suspected paedophile. She took my advice and I am glad. If you pro lifers knew what her other 2 children had been through you might have a different perspective on the matter

"Wow. It is great that this debate is still on going. I also think it is fantastic that it hasnt descended into hateful name calling like so many other threads
do on here.". Well you certainly did your best to change the tone of it didn't you? .

for the record, the child you are referring to is Charlotte Wyat. A baby who was born prematurely, not who was diagnosed with disabilities in utero. so termination was not a relevant choice here. Or are you perhaps suggesting that disabled babies be killed to "end their suffering"? .

Tiredlady, the last few comments aren't about abortion, they're about the comments on the previous page of the thread.

Sorry, but actually even though ronshar may have expressed it awkwardly, I think she does have a kind of point about the Charlotte Wyat case. The doctors felt very strongly in that case that continuing treatment was prolonging her suffering. Her parents took the trust to court over the decision, and now neither one of them can be bothered to look after her. and yes,ronshar is right. It is more difficult to place disabled children in foster care then able bodied ones.

Blimey, I missed ronshar's comments. Which are offensive and irrelevant to the issue.

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between choosing to end invasive medical assistance for a child already born, and deciding to terminate a pregnancy when there is a disabled child involved.

They are two different topics.

Blimey, tired! It's good to know my doctors aren't as judgemental as you are.

so given that Charlotte Wyat has exceeded all doctors' expectations and is even now been learning to walk she should die should she?

I think you'll find that it's not a case of the parents not being able to look after her, there are, iirc, deeper issues in this family which have resulted in all the children being placed in care, but the media have been banned from reporting on the case, so we only hear what is allowed to be reported.

But I have strayed off topic so

Do you mean about my patient or about the charlotte wyat case or both?

the Charlotte Wyatt thing.

I do hope that those who have terminations and are abusing drugs and living with dangerous partners are given some pretty serious birth control advice as well.

so which disabled people should be allowed to live then tiredlady?

Charlotte Wyat isn't actually in hospital any more, so clearly the doctors got it wrong about her didn't they? No she may not live what is deemed to be a normal life but that doesn't make her life any less worthwhile does it?

I do think there are times when keeping someone alive is wrong. If you are just prolonging that life rather than saving it. But I think that to suggest that disabled babies should be allowed to die because of how hard it is to place them in foster care is beyond abhorrend.

yes, maybe you are right expat. I think I am judgemental but I don't think that's always a bad thing.

And yes, I spend my entire life suggesting birth control to women who clearly couldn't look after a goldfish let alone a baby, yet they live such chaotic disordered lives that remembering to take the pill is beyond them. And that's not being judgemental, that's just a staement of fact

i guess, for me, it's not for me to decide who's life is worth living.

i don't want that on my conscience.

sorry, whose.

No wannabe, I never said Charlotte should have been allowed to die because of placement difficulties. I said the doctors made a decision that prolonging her life was causing her suffering, that's all. Paediatricians do not make these decisions lightly

And I also think that sometimes it is best to terminate a pregnancy on the basis of disability, ie in cases where a child has a condition that is incompatible with life.

But I am not comfortable with the idea of terminating pregnancy based on just any disability. Because not all disability is that bad.

When i was 7 my mother terminated an unplanned pregnancy because she didn't want another disabled baby. If my sister had been born blind instead of me then that termination would have been me. And I challenge anyone to tell me that my life is less worth living because I have a disability.

i look at my own life, and, for the most part, it's one cock up after another - one foot in the hole, one foot digging deeper.

and i was one of those G&T people with no disabilities besides my own utter stupidity.

lol!

how can i be one to say, 'oh, you, my child, has a disability, or you're an inconvience to me because of timing/relationship/ what have you, therefore your life isn't worth living. or your life is incompatible with mine. so i'm going to make the decision to end it.'

to me, that would just make me the one thing i really hate the most: a hypocrite with no balls.

i understand others feel differently. fair play to them, i don't have to wake up and be them.

I would be completely horrified if anyone told you your life was less worth living.

But my point is this, for some women, motherhood is more of a struggle than for others. If for some reason - ANY reason - they feel they could not cope with a baby at that time in their life - then for them to terminate is a far better thing, then for that baby to be born unwanted and unloved.I have seen shocking shocking things that people have done to children. Not being born is not the worst thing that could happen to someone

I find this so difficult, having had a friend who had a baby who died shortly after birth due to severe diability that was known about in the womb. They were advised to terminate, and declined, and for the short time that little person was in the world, they were loved and gave that trusting love back that only a newborn can.

I've never had to walk that road, and I don't presume to know what it's like to be faced with that particular situation. But I do know that I don't have the capabilities to discern what constitutes an absolute 'quality of life' standard, and I know I cannot say that the little boy I saw didn't deserve the one day that he had.

I think your friend was immeasureably brave to have done that

KH I have heard of people choosing to do this as well and again I would support whatever choice the parents felt was the right one to make. I do think that sometimes in cases of severe disabilities or health issues post-birth, while it is understandable that parents will want to cling on to any hope of keeping a child alive, doctors sometimes may want to stop treatement because they feel that it is prolonging the child's suffering and doing no good. You sometimes read about cases where the parents 'defy' the doctors and against all odds the child recovers to an extent: but there are also cases where the parents insist on further treatment and the child still dies (Jaymee Bowen, for instance). It's a very complicated issue.

tiredlady. So what are you going to do with this drug-addict patient of yours next time she gets pregnant? Or do you think this latest pregnancy of hers was a one-off mistake?

I am fuming at reading some of the posts on here. I am the mother of a little adorable boy with special needs, who doesn't sit around, but certainly dribbles because of his hypotonia, my heart sinks just to think that someone might think his life is not worth living, I am actually in tears as I type this.

Is this the type of attitude he is going to be faced with with he grows up and I'm not around to take care of him?

I know these days it is not acceptable to express one's spiritual ideas because then apparently we would be classed as "nutters", but I truly believe that we are not just cells, we are energy, and energy that needs to experience life.

tiredlady, your post at 23.37 last night makes a lot of sense to me.