Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

"f for some reason - ANY reason - they feel they could not cope with a baby at that time in their life - then for them to terminate is a far better thing, then for that baby to be born unwanted and unloved."
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I sometimes feel that adoption is now much more of a taboo than abortion. Even late stage abortion. A junkie, living with a paedophile, whose children have a hellish existence should have those children taken away and put up for adoption. Social workers seem to take children based on theories about MSbP, surely that scenario is more urgent? Does the mother have some objection to longer term contraception?

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If babies can be born alive prior to full term why not try to ensure that they are, instead of terminating them in utero? Many of us would give anything to be able to adopt a baby. I think a woman with an unwanted pregnancy should have more options besides abortion or keeping the baby. They should also be helped to find a suitable home, of their own choosing, if that is what they want.

Upwind, while I think adoption can be a valid solution to an unwanted pregnancy in some cases (and I speak as someone who was adopted as a baby because I was born 3 years before abortion was legally available) I don't think that it's right to force women to continue their pregnancies for the benefit of those who long to adopt: women are not baby-making machines to be used for others' benefit.

Madamez - I agree that nobody should be forced to continue with a pregnancy against their will, but I still think that adoption should be made as easy as possible for women who would consider it. The US system seems to allow women to feel happier about the idea - as they can choose the people who will raise their child and meet them.

Especially, if a baby is being aborted at a time when it may be viable outside the womb, why not use induction and give the baby a chance? The pregnancy is not prolonged and an adoptive family has the joy of a baby.

I hope Ronshar comes back and answers to some of the posts written in response to hers (though not the offensive ones e.g. "fuck you" - totally out of order imo). Have known her on ttc threads and she has always emerged as a lovely person. I certainly never got the impression she would ever intentionally want to hurt anyone.

I too think people have been a little harsh on Ronshar: though I understand why the parents of children with severe disabilties were angry, she wasnt' making a personal attack on anyone else's child, merely expressing an opinion.

Yes I can also understand why parents of disabled children would be upset/angry.

Surely those of you say it's always got to be the woman's choice, because it's her body and no woman should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy, draw the line at terminating somewhere before 40 weeks??????????? Even though the baby is still in the womb and dependent on the mother and effectively she is being 'forced' (post-24 weeks) to carry an unwanted pregnancy if she doesn't want the child?

Well, there's a big push by the government to encourage the termination of babies with disabilities. We're seeing it in the embryology bill. We see it with what happens re Down's Syndrome.

I am on the autistic spectrum, and someone whose life is a long, long way from being bad. I'm a married mum with a business. I'm a church adviser. I'm a school governor. If someone had known me as a child, they would have said all of this was impossible.

I'm also all too aware that under current recommendations, if they'd spotted it whilst I was in the womb, some doctor would have been along to suggest that mum had me aborted as I "might" have had a poor quality of life and be a burden to society.

It's not a great feeling to know that a fair proportion of society thinks that we shouldn't have been born.

I also count myself lucky to know some very disabled people who are still brilliant friends and as worthy of love as anyone else here, dribbling or not.

Just my two-penneth-worth

Its only the non-disabled who look and shudder and think 'life isn't worth living like that'

No its not. I'm disabled and on balance I think my life is worth living. But if I became any more disabled I'm not so sure.

I don't think it should be taboo to discuss quality of life issues. Financial/medical resources are finite and I think we have a duty to think very carefully about how they are best used.

Spero: ?I'm disabled and on balance I think my life is worth living. But if I became any more disabled I'm not so sure.?. I do take your point on that, and imo there?s nothing wrong with admitting to feeling like that on a personal level. If I lost my hearing/ability to walk/talk I think it would feel like the end of the world for me. Similarly if I was severely brain damaged and left on machines following an accident I wouldn?t want to live like that.

But while it?s fine to have that opinion on a personal level, the issue for me is when we start feeling we have the right to make that call on behalf of others. Because what to us might seem horrific, is normal to others, especially when they have lived like that all their lives, so we can?t possibly begin to think for them, or to really begin to imagine how they feel/what they would want.

I know people who have lost their sight and who have felt like killing themselves as a result. But I would be devastated if any of those people suggested that I would be better off dead purely because I can?t see, iykwim?

We see things differently according to how we personally experience them. So while to you or I the thought of sitting in a wheelchair unable to move or speak might seem horrendous, to the child who has been born like that and knows no different, that is how it?s always been and they don?t know what it?s like to move or speak so they have no reason to be less than content with their life.

Wannabe, but sometimes we do have to make that call on behalf of others: people who have suffered severe brain injury in an accident or through illness, the very elderly who have severe Alzheimers etc - sometimes there are cases when a decision has to be made on whether or not to take certain actions (ie to operate or not to operate) when the person cannot make his/her wishes known and the surgical procedure is painful or has only a small chance of success etc.

no I agree that ignorance isn't an excuse. What I was trying to say was that the way we perceive things from a personal pov could affect the way we seem to think we perceive them from others' pov. (not me personally but others.).

so for example, people say to me that "oh it must have been so hard for you to cope with a baby, considering as you can't see.". They don't actually know. But they have this idea of what it must be like not being able to see. how hard it must be to do things when you can't see what you're doing, and they can't imagine how they would cope in that situation. So they project that thinking on to me, iyswim?

I agree with you, KM.

I am totally disgusted with the previous comment "sit and dribble", and am not surprised it has caused an uproar. I think maybe people should THINK before they are finger happy on their keyboards....... There are a lot of ignorant people that cause offence in numerous different ways, and sadly there always will be. Please take into account other peoples feelings before making comments.

Totally agree with KM and Tinyclanger - and others who have already said what they feel about "sit and dribble" as a really offensive thing to say about people with disabilities

A baby born to a junkie is likely to be born with any number of abnormalities, lus probably severe withdrawal aymptoms - fitting, shaking and continuous crying (from pain?)

My mum's friend was a foster carer for a newborn withdrawing from heroin and it was heartbreaking

We have no right to judge the worth of anothers life, disabled or not.

All of this is straying from the original subject.

" do. That baby had absoluetly no quaility of life. The parents had several other children already. They were nut case christians. Well they now have separated and the poor baby is in the care of social services, who have real trouble placeing "normal" children let alone children who just sit and dribble.
Would it not have been better for everyone if the mother had been given the opportunity to have a termination"

when some one makes a comment like this. I for one could not give a flying fuck if they have been nice on other threads. they should hang their head in shame.

I didn't watch the programme but on a skim through of this thread I agree with Beaniestevie: it can't be assumed that all women fo do thrugh a feeling of gulit - not are they feckless females for having chosen to have a termination.

Whn I was 22 I had a termination: it was the wrong time, the wrong man for me to have a family. I had only jsut lot myvifginity and altohughh we were using barrier contraception it didn't work....

It was probably about c.11 or 12 weeks by the time I had the termination - my cycle wasn't very regular (I later worked out it was an alternating 3 week/5 week cycle and that it probably happened on the 3 week cycle) and I was doing my term in France when I auapected and thne watied until I got back to confirm.

The worst thing was telling my Mum & Dad - more 'cos I was embarassed that I was having to aks for their help. My mum was brillinat - she told me that she had a termniation after having my db (younger than me) at a time that they were going to emigrating. She told me you don't need to feel guilty if you don't want to - she never had.

That was how I felt: I was ill and I was made better.

About 6 years later I was at a "Women as leaders" course when I was mde the focous of a "soul searching" session,where some of the others tried to make me feel something - to admit that I was smeohow supressing the pain. I was asked to imagine waht the child would have been like, waht it would have been called and to essetnailly to feel upset. I genuinely couldn't - it wasn;t something that had ever been realt o me. Being pregant and having an embroyo inside me wasn't ever linked - I never felt I had a baby inside me.

Having said all of that, since having ds I would no longer make the same choice - but that is because I now want a baby - it is now real for me. I have had two missed miscarriages since ds - which were very upsetting for me.

But I still don't regeret the decision my 22 year old self made.

Wannabe, I do agree with you absolutely in that we have to be VERY careful about making decisions for others. Judging by the reactions I've had from some people, I am sure they feel that my life is just not worth living (o you poor thing, HOW do you cope etc, etc)

But my argument is, given that resources are finite, not all of us can have at every moment the equipment, carers we need to make life worth living (and I know that is a treacherous concept with lots of different povs etc). Therefore, if we shy away from making difficult choices, i think we risk making things worse for everyone.

What I remember is watching a documentary about children born v prematurely and how all the parents/doctors fought very hard to keep them alive. Most were left with disabilities, ranging from the mild to the incredibly severe. the child most affected could could move only his eyes and appeared to have no understanding/recognition of anyone in his life. His father said he now regretted fighting so hard and that the best thing would just have been to let him go.

I think there should be more discussion so that a wider range of views can be canvassed. To say we must preserve life at all costs doesn't seem sensible to me.

Spero: I agree with you entirely that the difficult choices regarding premature babies and severely disabled ones need further discussion, but I do think (going back to the original subject) that noone else's opinions shoud ever take prioroty over those of a woman with an unplanned pregnancy because no one else should have rights over another human being's body. ANd that there is something atually pretty disgusting about the fact that this is the only medical procedure for which a patient needs two doctors to give permission. Doctors do not own a patient, nor does the state, and whatever religious figures might think, they and their opinions are totally fucking irrelevant.

as I have said before dd's cp was caused at birth. so should she have been left to die??
and the people who suggest the culling of severely disabled babies. are you going to do the job?

madamez, I agree. But although the law demands that two doctors give permission, this certainly hasn't been my experience in reality! the reality appears to be that it is abortion on demand (at least in the early stages) and I think that must be right.

But its an interesting point and highlights the problem when morality/religion infuse what I think is almost entirely a medical/personal choice issue.

2shoes, i don't criticise you for being emotive but I don't think it helps the debate. My mum used to work with very severely disabled children; one child was all day in a kind of skateboarders outfit; helmet, knee pads etc because all the time he was awke, all he did when not restrained was beat his head against any available hard surface. He'd been abandoned by his parents, the prognosis apparently was that he would never get 'better'. So had I been allowed, I would definitely have helped to give him aa peaceful and dignified death as was possible.

fucking hell you really are a sad person.