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Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland

256 replies

shoulditbethishard1 · 22/05/2023 22:31

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

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41
AlmaCogansFrockFan · 23/05/2023 11:27

Yes, and I agree it was upsetting.

FlySwimmer · 23/05/2023 11:41

I watched it, I thought it was well done and learned things.

I am Irish, living in Britain and find it shocking and upsetting how little people living in Britain often know about the Troubles, despite it being their own country! (Not a dig at any PP at all, just a general observation).

TooBigForMyBoots · 23/05/2023 11:50

I haven't watched it. I used to watch shows like that but in recent years I find them triggering. They make me feel sad and sick and angry.Sad

shoulditbethishard1 · 23/05/2023 16:09

FlySwimmer · 23/05/2023 11:41

I watched it, I thought it was well done and learned things.

I am Irish, living in Britain and find it shocking and upsetting how little people living in Britain often know about the Troubles, despite it being their own country! (Not a dig at any PP at all, just a general observation).

I would entirely agree, I've watched a lot over the last 10 years but before that I must admit I was of the general opinion that IRA Evil - everyone else good.

I absolutely do not have the same opinion now, I think both sides did evil things that were totally not justified, but you cannot excuse the way that catholics were treated. One thing I wasn't aware of until last nights episode was the one vote for one man - I know this was the late 60's but come on!! Outrageous

OP posts:
mushroommummy · 23/05/2023 16:49

Oh lord.. please be careful with posts about N.Ireland. Both sides have suffered so much and it still continues today.

Cleebope2 · 23/05/2023 16:59

Yes I watched it and will binge the rest. It’s good. Lost Lives is another recent documentary in iplayer that is similar and moving. Pop Goes Northern Ireland is a brilliant BBC series too. I didn’t learn anything new though. The soldier’s perspective is interesting.

Fabat40ish · 23/05/2023 17:05

I watched this last night and it was riveting. I am ashamed to admit how little I really knew or understood about 'the troubles' despite having grown up during the 70s and 80s.
I'm not sure if my ignorance was based in 'fingers in ears, I'm not listening' or a biased narrative. Maybe too busy living my life, and it not really having a marked impact? But I do remember feeling tearful with relief when the Good Friday agreement was signed.
I'll certainly be watching the rest of the series, and I admired the honesty and self reflection from all the participants who have featured so far.

Fabat40ish · 23/05/2023 17:09

@shoulditbethishard1 and like you I had no idea about the lack of voting rights. Shocked is an understatement.

labyut · 23/05/2023 17:11

Which channel was this on?

Fabat40ish · 23/05/2023 17:11

@labyut BBC Iplayer (I think it was BBC2)

Mrsjayy · 23/05/2023 17:12

shoulditbethishard1 · 22/05/2023 22:31

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

Yes .we watched it, so much I didn't know. I .don't know if I can say I enjoyed it but it was moving and interesting.

Mimilamore · 23/05/2023 17:28

Watched it and learnt a lot, will watch rest on iPlayer

curtainsfringe · 23/05/2023 17:45

I am Irish, living in Britain and find it shocking and upsetting how little people living in Britain often know about the Troubles, despite it being their own country! (Not a dig at any PP at all, just a general observation).

There's a lot of ignorance. I see it on here all the time.

FlySwimmer · 23/05/2023 17:49

curtainsfringe · 23/05/2023 17:45

I am Irish, living in Britain and find it shocking and upsetting how little people living in Britain often know about the Troubles, despite it being their own country! (Not a dig at any PP at all, just a general observation).

There's a lot of ignorance. I see it on here all the time.

Yep. Though good to see people engaging with this documentary at least. All the eps are on iPlayer so I’ll probably try finish it over the next few days.

YellowAndGreenToBeSeen · 23/05/2023 18:43

It was brilliant. The archive at the top was so evocative of ordinary people just living their lives. Made me very sad and angry for all. The casting / interviews are brilliant - the things they’ve got people to talk about and say is a true skill.

The team that made it also made a similar series called Once Upon a Time In Iraq. Equally brilliant (won the BAFTA).

cakeorwine · 23/05/2023 19:12

Watched it. Very interesting. The history of the Island of Ireland was not taught much in our school .I think the first thing I heard about was the hunger strikers - Bobby Sands. I remember hearing about the bombs, seeing the marches, hearing Ian Paisley and having Gerry Adams censored so we couldn't hear his voice - but we could hear his words.

But so much that I was not aware of in detail - especially around how it started, the troops arriving etc

DownNative · 23/05/2023 19:17

shoulditbethishard1 · 23/05/2023 16:09

I would entirely agree, I've watched a lot over the last 10 years but before that I must admit I was of the general opinion that IRA Evil - everyone else good.

I absolutely do not have the same opinion now, I think both sides did evil things that were totally not justified, but you cannot excuse the way that catholics were treated. One thing I wasn't aware of until last nights episode was the one vote for one man - I know this was the late 60's but come on!! Outrageous

Firstly, let me state for the record that I am a Northern Ireland citizen. And a Catholic.

Also a Catholic Unionist.

Secondly, I watched the first episode and thought it was lacking in some important details I believe is critical to a nuanced understanding of the situation as it was and, yes, still remains in Northern Ireland.

Take the all too brief mention of "one man, one vote", for example. You'd be forgiven for thinking that Catholics had absolutely zero votes completely.

But this is not quite how it was. To cut a long complicated story short, Catholics had the vote in UK Westminster Elections and the Stormont Elections - exactly the same as the Protestants. It was in the local council elections that Catholics were at a disadvantage. It wasn't that they couldn't vote (they could), it was more that nobody of any background could vote unless they were property owners. Protestants were, in practice, more likely to own property and so more of them could vote in comparison to Catholics.

This was the SAME system that had been used in Great Britain and the Irish Republic in previous decades. Northern Ireland took a bit longer to abolish that one, but they did so in November 1969, IIRC.

But "one man, one vote" was NOT something Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA were fighting for when they choose to murder.

Indeed, the then leader of the biggest Nationalist Party throughout the Troubles, SDLP's John Hume was exactingly clear that things of that nature were NOT justifiable reasons for Provo terrorism.

"The greatest injustice in the north of Ireland today is acts committed by paramilitary organisations like the IRA. The taking of human life is the greatest injustice.

Other injustices can be corrected. People can come out of prison, but people cannot come out of their graves."

  • John Hume

In fact, a whole range of reforms had been put in place in the months before the Troubles, some enacted by the Northern Ireland Government itself.

To cut another long story short, that should have been enough to avert terrorist murder. But the Provos knew if those reforms were given time to be enacted and implemented fully....they could not get their terrorist campaign off the ground. So, engineering confrontation became important.

Another thing the first episode didn't address adequately is the existence of the IRA itself. You'd have been forgiven for thinking that the Provisionals only began AFTER the British Army was deployed.

The truth is more that the IRA had existed well before the Troubles. Their border campaign of 1956-1962 didn't even get a mention in the programme, but it is important information to know. Richard O'Rawe said the IRA was "dormant", but intelligence reports compiled separately by the Irish and Stormont Governments said "....the IRA was stepping up recruitment and intent on relaunching a campaign of violence in Northern Ireland, according to confidential cabinet files" in 1966.

Three years before the Troubles officially began.

The IRA split in December 1969 to become the Official IRA and the Provisional I.R.A. Their respective prefixes were merely temporary labels used to distinguish between them. A read in the IRA Green Book made by the Provisionals makes it clear they are the continuation of all the IRAs from before.

So, not something new as O'Rawe said. Provo members were certainly in the previous IRA.

Another thing I believe the makers could have developed more on AND challenged is the well known phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

It sounds reasonable and like a valid point of view, right? But it becomes untenable to hold that position when you realise the IRA was regarded as an illegal organisation on both sides of the border. The Irish Government saw the IRA as a threat to them also since the IRA themselves claimed to be the rightful and true Provisional Government of the whole island. That's in their Green Book. Both sovereign Governments regarded all the various terrorist groups as illegal.

Terrorist groups are always non-state actors as well, so legitimate armies aren't terrorist organisations.

It was Hume who powerfully said the IRA were fascists who would impose a dictatorship on the entire island if they were to win victory. And that "by destroying Ireland's people, they destroy Ireland".

That phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a hugely problematic phrase anywhere in the world. It's a way of justifying the irrational and unjustifiable. But nobody was challenged on this one which is unreasonable.

I think the natural viewpoint is that all the Republican and Loyalist terrorists were certainly evil, immoral, undemocratic and brutal to their own communities too. But the same cannot be said of the Security Forces themselves. Yes, they made mistakes and serious strategic misjudgements, but they weren’t exactly evil. Considering there were 300,000 British Army personnel throughout Operation Banner, fewer than 1% of them were involved in killing throughout the period.

Terrorist organisations were far and away the main takers of human life irrespective of background.

All that said, the first episode is an alright summary of the early period. But viewers should be aware it skips right through them so important details are lost.

There's so many I could point out.

Hopefully, episodes 2 to 5 will be significantly better.

Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland
DownNative · 23/05/2023 19:21

If you want an excellent source for how the Provisionals got their terrorist campaign off the ground, their thoughts, beliefs and so much more, I would recommend Rogelio Alonso's book, "IRA And Armed Struggle".

It's excellent. He interviewed 62 IRA terrorists and is himself an expert in terrorism at a university in Madrid. Alonso is a Spanish lecturer on the topic.

Highly readable book.

Lamelie · 23/05/2023 19:26

shoulditbethishard1 · 23/05/2023 16:09

I would entirely agree, I've watched a lot over the last 10 years but before that I must admit I was of the general opinion that IRA Evil - everyone else good.

I absolutely do not have the same opinion now, I think both sides did evil things that were totally not justified, but you cannot excuse the way that catholics were treated. One thing I wasn't aware of until last nights episode was the one vote for one man - I know this was the late 60's but come on!! Outrageous

How is this not common knowledge? I’m RC, RC in laws on Belfast. I’ve read loads about The Troubles and never learned this. DH and I were ‘wait what? Rewind!’

Lamelie · 23/05/2023 19:33

DownNative · 23/05/2023 19:17

Firstly, let me state for the record that I am a Northern Ireland citizen. And a Catholic.

Also a Catholic Unionist.

Secondly, I watched the first episode and thought it was lacking in some important details I believe is critical to a nuanced understanding of the situation as it was and, yes, still remains in Northern Ireland.

Take the all too brief mention of "one man, one vote", for example. You'd be forgiven for thinking that Catholics had absolutely zero votes completely.

But this is not quite how it was. To cut a long complicated story short, Catholics had the vote in UK Westminster Elections and the Stormont Elections - exactly the same as the Protestants. It was in the local council elections that Catholics were at a disadvantage. It wasn't that they couldn't vote (they could), it was more that nobody of any background could vote unless they were property owners. Protestants were, in practice, more likely to own property and so more of them could vote in comparison to Catholics.

This was the SAME system that had been used in Great Britain and the Irish Republic in previous decades. Northern Ireland took a bit longer to abolish that one, but they did so in November 1969, IIRC.

But "one man, one vote" was NOT something Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA were fighting for when they choose to murder.

Indeed, the then leader of the biggest Nationalist Party throughout the Troubles, SDLP's John Hume was exactingly clear that things of that nature were NOT justifiable reasons for Provo terrorism.

"The greatest injustice in the north of Ireland today is acts committed by paramilitary organisations like the IRA. The taking of human life is the greatest injustice.

Other injustices can be corrected. People can come out of prison, but people cannot come out of their graves."

  • John Hume

In fact, a whole range of reforms had been put in place in the months before the Troubles, some enacted by the Northern Ireland Government itself.

To cut another long story short, that should have been enough to avert terrorist murder. But the Provos knew if those reforms were given time to be enacted and implemented fully....they could not get their terrorist campaign off the ground. So, engineering confrontation became important.

Another thing the first episode didn't address adequately is the existence of the IRA itself. You'd have been forgiven for thinking that the Provisionals only began AFTER the British Army was deployed.

The truth is more that the IRA had existed well before the Troubles. Their border campaign of 1956-1962 didn't even get a mention in the programme, but it is important information to know. Richard O'Rawe said the IRA was "dormant", but intelligence reports compiled separately by the Irish and Stormont Governments said "....the IRA was stepping up recruitment and intent on relaunching a campaign of violence in Northern Ireland, according to confidential cabinet files" in 1966.

Three years before the Troubles officially began.

The IRA split in December 1969 to become the Official IRA and the Provisional I.R.A. Their respective prefixes were merely temporary labels used to distinguish between them. A read in the IRA Green Book made by the Provisionals makes it clear they are the continuation of all the IRAs from before.

So, not something new as O'Rawe said. Provo members were certainly in the previous IRA.

Another thing I believe the makers could have developed more on AND challenged is the well known phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

It sounds reasonable and like a valid point of view, right? But it becomes untenable to hold that position when you realise the IRA was regarded as an illegal organisation on both sides of the border. The Irish Government saw the IRA as a threat to them also since the IRA themselves claimed to be the rightful and true Provisional Government of the whole island. That's in their Green Book. Both sovereign Governments regarded all the various terrorist groups as illegal.

Terrorist groups are always non-state actors as well, so legitimate armies aren't terrorist organisations.

It was Hume who powerfully said the IRA were fascists who would impose a dictatorship on the entire island if they were to win victory. And that "by destroying Ireland's people, they destroy Ireland".

That phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a hugely problematic phrase anywhere in the world. It's a way of justifying the irrational and unjustifiable. But nobody was challenged on this one which is unreasonable.

I think the natural viewpoint is that all the Republican and Loyalist terrorists were certainly evil, immoral, undemocratic and brutal to their own communities too. But the same cannot be said of the Security Forces themselves. Yes, they made mistakes and serious strategic misjudgements, but they weren’t exactly evil. Considering there were 300,000 British Army personnel throughout Operation Banner, fewer than 1% of them were involved in killing throughout the period.

Terrorist organisations were far and away the main takers of human life irrespective of background.

All that said, the first episode is an alright summary of the early period. But viewers should be aware it skips right through them so important details are lost.

There's so many I could point out.

Hopefully, episodes 2 to 5 will be significantly better.

Thank you. So it’s not that Catholics couldn’t vote in General Elections ‘just’ local ones.
There’s more details [[https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/irish-legal-heritage-one-man-one-vote www.irishlegal.com/articles/irish-legal-heritage-one-man-one-vote
The ratepayer qualification to vote was abolished on the Mainland in 1948.

Irish Legal Heritage: One Man, One Vote

The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) was established in 1967, and one of its main goals was to achieve 'one man, one vote' in Northern Ireland. The plural voting system, which gave business owners and university degree holders an extra...

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/irish-legal-heritage-one-man-one-vote

MyEyesAreBleeding · 23/05/2023 19:59

Cleebope2 · 23/05/2023 16:59

Yes I watched it and will binge the rest. It’s good. Lost Lives is another recent documentary in iplayer that is similar and moving. Pop Goes Northern Ireland is a brilliant BBC series too. I didn’t learn anything new though. The soldier’s perspective is interesting.

Pop goes Northern Ireland broke my heart. I didnt realise how much I had blocked out from those times and how normal it all was.

sashagabadon · 23/05/2023 20:03

That was very misleading of the programme then as I too assumed they meant General Elections for one man one vote. They should have made it clear it was local elections and due to property ownership and not based on religion of itself.
Growing up in London during 70’s and 80’s we were under almost constant threat of car bombs by the IRA. Manchester too.
I hope they don’t protest them as freedom fighters!

DownNative · 23/05/2023 20:06

Lamelie · 23/05/2023 19:33

Thank you. So it’s not that Catholics couldn’t vote in General Elections ‘just’ local ones.
There’s more details [[https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/irish-legal-heritage-one-man-one-vote www.irishlegal.com/articles/irish-legal-heritage-one-man-one-vote
The ratepayer qualification to vote was abolished on the Mainland in 1948.

It's largely forgotten that there was a sizable proportion of the Protestant population who also couldn't vote as they didn't own property.

Also largely forgotten is the fact John Hume tried to stop the Civil Rights march in January 1972 as he told the Saville Enquiry. And refused to attend another one because he could see what radicals in DHAC and People's Democracy were trying to do (unnecessarily provoke confrontation with the RUC and, later, the army).

Another even more forgotten fact is that Catholics and Protestants were surveyed by Richard Rose in 1968. Both sides of the community had said relations were at their best over the previous five years.

So, the descent into terrorism cannot be fully understood without knowing exactly what the IRA was doing behind the scenes. This included infiltrating NICRA which put Protestants off joining.

So, there's a lot of importance material left out of the whole picture. The episode didn't really make a lot of sense seeing it going from marches to violence like that because its not actually how it happened in reality.

MaudGone · 23/05/2023 20:14

The claims made by the interviewees shouldn't be treated as gospel. None of their claims were challenged.

shoulditbethishard1 · 23/05/2023 20:16

DownNative · 23/05/2023 20:06

It's largely forgotten that there was a sizable proportion of the Protestant population who also couldn't vote as they didn't own property.

Also largely forgotten is the fact John Hume tried to stop the Civil Rights march in January 1972 as he told the Saville Enquiry. And refused to attend another one because he could see what radicals in DHAC and People's Democracy were trying to do (unnecessarily provoke confrontation with the RUC and, later, the army).

Another even more forgotten fact is that Catholics and Protestants were surveyed by Richard Rose in 1968. Both sides of the community had said relations were at their best over the previous five years.

So, the descent into terrorism cannot be fully understood without knowing exactly what the IRA was doing behind the scenes. This included infiltrating NICRA which put Protestants off joining.

So, there's a lot of importance material left out of the whole picture. The episode didn't really make a lot of sense seeing it going from marches to violence like that because its not actually how it happened in reality.

That’s what we found strange, it literally went from both catholic & Protestants bringing out tea’s & cakes to the British soldiers, to 2 years later when things had changed dramatically but there was no explanation as to what had actually happened it to decline so drastically

OP posts: