Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Telly addicts

Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland

256 replies

shoulditbethishard1 · 22/05/2023 22:31

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
41
postwarbulge · 24/05/2023 17:40

When you watched the news in the lat Sixtiesies the names with which you had become familiar, such as Da Nang Mi Lai, and Hanoi, we suddenly joined by Bogside. Cregan and Shankhill.

DownNative · 24/05/2023 18:09

Aerielview · 24/05/2023 10:12

Your posts make for very interesting reading @DownNative
The quotes from John Hume - where can I find these? Any particular book or website that you'd recommend?
Also, the housing reforms that you said were passed before the IRA started its campaign - where can I read more about those?

For those who don't believe there could be such a thing as a Catholic unionist - I think there are many Catholics who believe they have a better standard of living in the UK than they would have in the Republic, and for that reason many would prefer to remain in the UK. Perhaps not many would describe themselves as unionists as @DownNative does, opting instead to define their views in terms of economic realities rather than as a political allegiance to the crown. And most of them keep their views to themselves and don't voice them to others - they only express them on the ballot paper on election day.

Yeah, sure! The CAIN website is a good place to begin since it has quite a lot of material on John Hume. Actually, some of the quotes I used came from some of the material on it, e.g., Hume's 1973 comments about how the IRA intend to impose a dictatorship on the people which he made to the then Northern Ireland Assembly as established under the Sunningdale Agreement.

Here's the link:

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cain/john_hume

As for housing reforms, I'll have a look and get back to you on that one.

As for Catholics and the label of Unionist, I think it's correct most of them wouldn't choose that particular label. Pro-Union would be one alternative or they simply did not opt for one. I think its important too to acknowledge that these Catholics had a range of views on the Union itself. There wasn't anything like a monolithic viewpoint as their perspectives ranged from a strong sense of Unionism to not wanting to rock the boat to feeling economic benefits of the Union to simply not wanting a united Ireland to wanting Northern Ireland to continue to exist.

Quite a range of views. The Protestants tended to not exhibit the same behaviour to the same extent. There's more Catholics in favour of staying in the UK than there are Protestants in favour of a united Ireland. Richard Rose's 1968 work is actually very interesting on how the people as a whole identified before the Troubles too.

While one or two in this thread have struggled with the concept of a Catholic Unionist, I can point to a Protestant in other direction they might be shocked by if they don't already know.

Billy Leonard, a Protestant from Lurgan, County Armagh was at one time in the RUC Reserve, SDLP and Provisional Sinn Féin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18510099.amp

Suddenly, a Catholic Unionist isn't such an outlandish concept, eh?

John Hume - Speeches, Statements, and Articles | Conflict Archive on the INternet(CAIN)

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cain/john_hume

Aerielview · 24/05/2023 19:32

Thanks @DownNative

TooBigForMyBoots · 24/05/2023 19:39

Here's a link about the MRF for anyone interested. Their atrocities in NI aren't as well known as Bloody Sunday and the other massacres.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Reaction_Force

Military Reaction Force - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Reaction_Force

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 24/05/2023 20:14

I've just finished watching the second episode, thought it was really well done and interesting although obviously really distressing at times as well.

I think the radicalisation of young people happened on both sides and it's frightening how quickly that happens. It has happened so many times in history and is still happening now across the world.

What I still struggle is is what do the politicians gain by segregating and marginalising whole groups of people? Is it just power and using hate to control people?

You would think encouraging people to live and work together would be so much more beneficial to an economy/society but maybe I'm being naive.

TooBigForMyBoots · 24/05/2023 20:48

It wasn't just young people on both sides, everybody was radicalised. Even in the rest of the UK, nice, relatively intelligent people were radicalised to hate by the government and media.Sad

It's not all bad news now though. Many folk here have copped on. We do work, marry, procreate, live together and alongside eachother. Most of our political parties advocate this.

Our biggest problem atm is the DUP's refusal to go back to Stormount.

Cunts!Angry

DownNative · 24/05/2023 22:50

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 24/05/2023 20:14

I've just finished watching the second episode, thought it was really well done and interesting although obviously really distressing at times as well.

I think the radicalisation of young people happened on both sides and it's frightening how quickly that happens. It has happened so many times in history and is still happening now across the world.

What I still struggle is is what do the politicians gain by segregating and marginalising whole groups of people? Is it just power and using hate to control people?

You would think encouraging people to live and work together would be so much more beneficial to an economy/society but maybe I'm being naive.

Yes, I thought the second episode was much better than the first one. Mind you, I personally feel more detail could have been put in it.

But I guess there's always books.

The sad story of Michael McConville's mother being abducted by the IRA under absolutely false claims of Jean McConville being an informer. She was NOT and this has long been established including by the Police Ombudsman's office.

Michael McConville was undoubtedly right in saying that what the IRA did to his mother was pure sectarianism. She was a Protestant who'd married a Catholic man.

The episode "Do the paramilitaries lie awake at night?" didn't tell us who the members of the IRA were who abducted her. The Price sisters, Delours and Marian, and Pat McClure. It's believed that Marian was the one who fired the fatal shot.

Michael's daughter, Bronagh, I was familiar with from another documentary with Patrick Kielty (husband of Kat Deely). Although Bronagh herself prefers a united Ireland which is opposite to me, we have some common ground in other aspects. So, I always have time for the McConvilles.

Anyway, the book on Jean's murder is attached. IIRC, the author is American.

As for your question about politicians, separation of people and power, none of it will make any sense if you don't factor in the terrorist groups themselves. Some politicians were either murdered or attempted to be murdered by terrorist groups. Sometimes a terrorist group would murder a politician who came from "their side of the tracks" - or try to. I've spoken previously about the IRA attacking the SDLP members who were from the same side of the tracks. Likewise, some Loyalist terrorists did attack some Unionist politicians.

So, the dynamic is essentially one of coercive control, especially during the Troubles era.

On top of that, in certain areas people self-segregated themselves to the point where some streets became almost exclusively Republican/Nationalist and Unionist/Loyalist. A well known example would be the Falls and Shankill roads. Both streets were mixed areas before 1970 and afterwards people were either burnt out of their homes or they left fearing attacks on their families. Lesser known examples were Andersontown and Rathcoole - again, these were mixed previously. I had a great-uncle who lived in Rathcoole with his English wife and kids until the Loyalists put them out of the area.

But if you went outside of Belfast and Stroke City, you would find a very different set of experiences. You could have Catholics and Protestants living on the same street with no real problems. So, very different to the Bogside and West Bank areas in Derry City or the Falls and Shankill roads in Belfast.

Stroke City = Londonderry aka Derry City aka Maiden City.

It depended on where you went, basically. So the answer to your question is its complicated. It can't all be put down to the politicians as there were other factors involved, especially the terrorist groups.

If I have time, I will post an excellent assessment of the situation regarding paramilitary control over local communities. It was so pervasive that Republican and Loyalist terrorists alike could actually control housing allocations amongst other things.

Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland
DownNative · 24/05/2023 22:58

Aerielview · 24/05/2023 19:32

Thanks @DownNative

You're welcome, @Aerielview.

Just realised I forgot to give you the title of Richard Rose's book - "Governing Without Consensus: An Irish Perspective" first published in 1971.

I've not read it, but plan to get it myself.

Peach27 · 25/05/2023 00:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

DownNative · 25/05/2023 06:33

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I take it your grandad was in the RUC and your father in the PSNI?

Respect to them both for their service!

If you've never seen the BBC documentary on the RUC/PSNI, it might still be on iPlayer. It's called Cops On The Front Line. It talks about the Catholic RUC officers amongst other things and how they had to face their own community. Catholic officers' families usually had to move out of areas they lived in, especially if it was an IRA dominated area such as the Falls. This level of danger at least partially explains why the proportion of Catholic officers in the RUC wasn't as high as it would have been without IRA threats.

Protestant officers had a lot of respect for their Catholic colleagues as the documentary shows.

It's quite difficult to explain to people now how difficult it was for people in various positions. Not many are able to put their peacetime perspective away, so.

Cheekymaw · 25/05/2023 07:49

RUC officers were also involved with loyalists in the shooting of Catholics during the Troubles , lets not pretend the organisation was a nice wholesome one eh ?

DownNative · 25/05/2023 08:47

Cheekymaw · 25/05/2023 07:49

RUC officers were also involved with loyalists in the shooting of Catholics during the Troubles , lets not pretend the organisation was a nice wholesome one eh ?

Some officers, yes. But let's not suggest the entire police force was completely discredited or anything like that, eh?

Additionally, the Provos and the UDA worked together to try to destroy the RUC Special Branch via propaganda and trying to murder SB officers.

The reason?

Special Branch was having a whopping 85% success rate in stopping Provo and UDA attacks on the entire population.

The statistics also tell us Republican and Loyalist terrorists barely scratched each other. And certainly left each others drug deal patches alone. They had an agreement. The The stats bear that out.

DownNative · 25/05/2023 09:10

Let's not forget too that the first RUC officer murdered during the Troubles was Victor Arbuckle, a Protestant, who was murdered by the UVF. He had been standing next to his colleague, Sergeant Dermot Hurley who became the first Catholic officer murdered during the Troubles.

Sergeant Dermot Hurley's murderers?

The Provisional I.R.A.

It's quite telling how one or two do not seem to mention the actual actions of the Provos preferring to focus on other groups.

But the fact remains that the Provos were the biggest takers of life, the most destructive force and the world's most dangerous terrorist organisation.

Hume pointed the finger at the Provisionals.

Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland
Tessisme · 25/05/2023 10:43

I'm on episode 4. Hard to watch. The woman talking about leaving incendiary devices in shops has reminded me that, when I worked part time in a big store in Belfast city centre in the mid 80's (I was doing my A levels) we were sometimes asked to search for these devices at the end of our shift. 17 and 18 year old Saturday workers patting down rails of clothes and rifling through displays of knitwear looking for fire bombs. Absolute madness.

EnglishwithSubtitles · 25/05/2023 14:47

Tessisme · 25/05/2023 10:43

I'm on episode 4. Hard to watch. The woman talking about leaving incendiary devices in shops has reminded me that, when I worked part time in a big store in Belfast city centre in the mid 80's (I was doing my A levels) we were sometimes asked to search for these devices at the end of our shift. 17 and 18 year old Saturday workers patting down rails of clothes and rifling through displays of knitwear looking for fire bombs. Absolute madness.

@Tessisme Similar although for me it was the early 2000s when there was a short campaign of fire bombs in shops. I remember asking what happens if we find something, and being told we would have to "guard" the shop until the police got there while other staff evacuated customers and notified the neighbouring shops. Utter madness when you think about it, would have been very easy to have triggered a device roughly rifling through the clothes 😱Bloody well wouldn't be agreeing to do it now!

Tessisme · 25/05/2023 16:30

I never even thought to ask @EnglishwithSubtitles. I mean we pondered it with each other and there was a fair bit of throwing unexploded plastic hangers at each other and shouting BOOM, but nobody asked the people in charge.

Guard the shop though? With the fire bomb in it? Bloody hell!!

TooBigForMyBoots · 25/05/2023 23:21

When I was young, I thought the call to keyholders in the area meant people in the area with keys?Blush I was in my early 20s, when a call went out on the TV for keyholders in Royal Avenue to go to the premises. And my mum told me it meant me! Because I had keys to my workplace.Shock

It was Friday night, I had plans. And I was fucked if I was going to go to look for bombs in my workplace. Not for the 70p an hour I was getting!Grin

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/05/2023 00:58

Take the all to brief mention of "one man one vote"... You'd be forgiven for thinking Catholics had absolutely zero votes.

Nice bit of minimisation there. The only right answer to a request for one (wo)man one vote is "of course you should have equal voting rights. Don't know what we missed there but in the meantime here's equality and we'll look into wtf went wrong".

Hmm
TooBigForMyBoots · 26/05/2023 01:44

Finished the 1st episode. How many in the series?

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/05/2023 02:07

The correct response to you shot a whole load of unarmed protesters is not decades of lying, demonising people and cover ups.Hmm

DownNative · 26/05/2023 06:08

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/05/2023 00:58

Take the all to brief mention of "one man one vote"... You'd be forgiven for thinking Catholics had absolutely zero votes.

Nice bit of minimisation there. The only right answer to a request for one (wo)man one vote is "of course you should have equal voting rights. Don't know what we missed there but in the meantime here's equality and we'll look into wtf went wrong".

Hmm

No, it's not minimisation but stating the facts correctly. And it was also the same in the Republic of Ireland who only abolished theirs in 1977.

Northern Ireland abolished theirs in 1969.

Great Britain in comparison to Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland abolished theirs in 1945.

DownNative · 26/05/2023 06:09

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/05/2023 01:44

Finished the 1st episode. How many in the series?

A total of five episodes.

Episode two is "Do the paramilitaries lie awake at night?" is actually better than the first one.

AuntieMarys · 26/05/2023 06:47

Just seen episode 3. A very sobering thought provoking series. We've just been to Belfast and will definitely return

YellowAndGreenToBeSeen · 26/05/2023 07:00

If you get the chance, watch the interview with James Bluemel (director and the off camera voice you hear) on BBC online. He talks about how & why it was made and also the fact you can’t cover everything and it’s not setting out to be the definitive exploration or understanding.

I’ve watched all 5 and cried for both sides on every episode (ROI parents, Republican & failed catholic for my background).

I think as a piece of oral history & telly, it’s outstanding. The trust the team built with the contributors, the weaving of their stories and the unpicking of an extremely complex issue & making it accessible - no mean feat at all.

shoulditbethishard1 · 26/05/2023 09:14

I watched episode 3 last night, wow what a powerful emotional episode. My heart broke 💔 for all of the people affected

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread