Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland

[shoulditbethishard1]

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

@TooBigForMyBoots fair enough.
To be honest with the auld Brexit ( which is awful and I didn't vote for it) I've thought about the auld nana's birthplace and getting the Dual Nationality. Does the Republic want the diaspora back from Scotland?😂

I think you're generalising there, especially as we're still on episode one and that didn't provide any real details on the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.

What I have said in previous posts is that a raft of reforms was carried out in 1968 and 1969.

See attached images.

But at the same time none of these is what Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA were fighting for. As Professor Liam Kennedy, Irish historian from Tipperary and Economic Historian at Queen's University of Belfast stated:

"Many of the key reforms in housing, local government and voting had been conceded by the time PIRA went on the offensive. The remarkable record of the success of the civil rights movement showed the potential for further reform. But the new game in town was not reform."

The success of NICRA at reform of Northern Ireland threatened to seriously destroy the PIRAs plans for murder. So they went on the offensive as the historical record shows. John Hume made it clear that the Provisionals were oppressing the Catholic population as well as the Protestant population:

"We are under no illusions about that (PSF/PIRA) campaign. We are under no illusions that it had no mandate from anybody to get into that campaign. Neither are we under any illusions that if it has victory it will seek no mandate for anything else and that it will impose a dictatorship on the people. So, do not let anybody think that we do not oppose the work of the Provisional I.R.A."

- John Hume 1973

And Hume again:

"....all the major grievances today within the Nationalist community are direct consequences of the IRA campaign: the presence of troops on our streets, the harassment and searching of young people, widespread house searches, prisons full of young people, lengthening dole queues leading to the emigration of many of our young people, checkpoints, emergency legislation ... If the campaign were to cease, these grievances would disappear.

The troops would very soon be off our streets; they wouldn’t be harassing young people or searching houses.

Checkpoints would vanish, emergency legislation would be unnecessary."

According* *to Hume, the Catholic population absolutely rejected Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA:

"...the reaction of that community (Catholic), having suffered so much, was to reject every single candidate who stood before it in the Assembly election without the slightest trace of sympathy for any organisation which supported violence in any shape or form."

- John Hume 1973

For their part, the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association flat out condemned the Provos. See the attached image from NICRA in 1978 taken from the CAIN website. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association blamed the Provisionals for a worse situation in regards to rights than existed before.

All of that and we've not mentioned the Republic of Ireland!

Do you accept that nationalists who didn't pay rates couldn't vote in the Republic's local council elections either?

When it came to One Man One Vote, Northern Ireland was lagging behind Great Britain, but actually ahead of the Republic of Ireland.

"The main area of contention was local government, where, like the Republic in the same period (though unlike the rest of the UK since 1945), rate-payers had votes calculated according to their property."

From the Republic of Ireland's Minister of State At The Department Of The Environment in 1977:

"A major undertaking of the Government's pre-election manifesto was that from January 1978 rates would be abolished on domestic property..."

As John Dorney pointed out:

"Rates and their link of the vote in local elections to property were abolished in 1977 but this also meant that local government was even more dependent now on central government funding."

A fact not included in the episode or mentioned by anyone here for a comparative example in relation to Northern Ireland.

I'm sure you will agree that none of this justifies in any way the terrorist campaign of the IRA.

I didn't live in Bangor at all, @TooBigForMyBoots. I just used it as an example to show not everywhere in Northern Ireland was consumed by the Troubles.

And I did mention the Provos murdered a relative of mine before trying to murder me, my sibling and both parents two months later.

So, it's not like my family were completely untouched or anything like that.

I'd rather a Celtic 3 in the EU, once England decides it doesn't want to be in the Union anymore.

I was in Londonderry and Belfast in the troubles. I was in the Army. I honestly felt that I was there to help. I was a 19 year old girl and was overwhelmed by what I saw and still have bad nights to this day. I saw young girls tarred and feathered, I attended an incident where a young boy had been kneecapped and I attended the aftermath of bombs. I went to funerals of soldiers who were killed. I was spat at regularly but I did realise how unfair life was for some. It would be horrendous to go back to those days.

And this is displays the issues perfectly. @DownNative is giving facts, backed up by statistics and evidence and continues to be shit down by people crying “but the big bad British Army” men who just happened to be doing a job. Just like in all jobs and the police today there are one or two bad apples but doesn’t mean the whole organisation is corrupt.

the troubles may officially be over but Northern Ireland will never be normal. Even down the the DUP refusing to stand in Stormont due to a none existent sea border (hell we can live in the EU and bring home unlimited Duty Free..think of the benefits!), by doing so all Civil Service departments have had their funding massively cut and it’s going to effect everyone on the ground.

whilst each side is still screaming at each other NI is just hanging on. The Brits don’t want us and neither does the Irish. We are fighting for nothing and need to find out Northern Irish identity away from British and Irish.

I can understand that, actually. None of the family would ever let anyone outside of it know that.

John Hume explained exactly why and how this came to be:

"Bigotry and a fixation about religious divisions are the first thing that strike any visitor to the North. The Nationalist line of the past forty years has made its contribution to this situation. Catholics of all shades of political thought are expected to band together under the unconstructive banner of Nationalism. This dangerous equation of Nationalism and Catholicism has simply contributed to the postponement of the emergence of normal politics in the area and has made the task of the Unionist Ascendancy simpler.

Worse, it has poisoned the Catholic social climate to the extent that it has become extremely difficult for a Catholic to express publicly any point of view which does not coincide with the narrow Nationalist line. Disagreement with, or criticism of the Nationalist approach – or lack of it – inevitably brings down upon one’s head a torrent of abuse. “Obsequious”, “Crawling”, “Castle Catholic”, “West Briton” are samples of the terms used."

And:

"...many Catholics have been unwilling to speak their minds for fear of recrimination. The Nationalist press are the chief perpetrators of this situation."

All I can say is thank god for people like John Hume who had not only the foresight, but the good honour to see right through the terrorist propaganda that plagued not only the Catholic community, but the whole community.

Hume was right all along. Absolutely no way would I have let anyone outside my family know we were not only Catholics but Unionists. As I said before the likes of the UVF and UDA would have been at our house too. No thanks!

So why would you have knowingly met a Catholic Unionist in real life?

Chances are you met them without ever knowing that. "Loose talk costs lives....whatever you say, say nothing!".

Let me say thank you for your service first of all.

The interesting thing is that John Hume absolutely said the Republic and/or any new united Ireland State would have to adopt the same kind of security measures the UK had to do.

The Provisionals called him a "traitor" which is a laughable smear when you really stop to think about it!

They firebombed his house and intimidated other members of the SDLP.

Here was a man whose life had been spent pursuing peace through constitutional politics and trying his best to stop the murder. Yet he knew no State could refuse to implement the same security measures.

Speaks volumes. The British Army did help. They prevented full on civil war. Hell, Sergeant Michael Willets threw himself onto an IRA bomb to save civilians at the cost of his own life. How often do you hear about that kind of thing?

Not often.

I don't think anyone here would doubt the part John Hume played in the peace process. But the Army as preventing a full scale war - would that be before or after Ballymurphy and/Bloody Sunday?
"Biggest recruiting sergeants for the Provos"

I can't agree here at all. The Irish people very much understand the troubles and more importantly understand why Northern Ireland exists at all, yes through a nationalist bias but in the main the Irish republic are nationalists! Every country teaches history through their own lens. We did study "the troubles" in history and still do. We also study Irish history so have a deep understanding of how Northern Ireland came about. We studied the Plantations, the Act of Union, Catholic Emancipation, the 1916 Rising, the black and tans, the treaty the Irish civil war, partition. I am sure not many English people knew that Ireland plunged into civil war over the treaty that was signed in the 1920s partitioning Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland. That is how far back division goes and of course the views of those that fought in the civil war against partition did not go away.

"Personally, I wouldn't necessarily be shocked at people from anywhere in not really understanding or knowing much about it. For one thing, we're a small country"
I was not talking about people from anywhere though I was talking about English people, Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain and it is shameful they have such an ignorance about it but same can be true of their knowledge about the partition of India and Pakistan if there is any country that is bias and selective in their historical teachings it is Britain.

Great post @Dulra.

Can I give a shout out for Seamus Mallon who worked tirelessly with John Hume for a solution that would bring peace to Northern Ireland and civil rights to the marginalised.
I always think he gets a bit overlooked.

The study of History tells us WHY.
It can also teach us not to repeat mistakes (but that isn't always a lesson taken on board).
It is such an important subject.

Your posts make for very interesting reading @DownNative
The quotes from John Hume - where can I find these? Any particular book or website that you'd recommend?
Also, the housing reforms that you said were passed before the IRA started its campaign - where can I read more about those?

For those who don't believe there could be such a thing as a Catholic unionist - I think there are many Catholics who believe they have a better standard of living in the UK than they would have in the Republic, and for that reason many would prefer to remain in the UK. Perhaps not many would describe themselves as unionists as @DownNative does, opting instead to define their views in terms of economic realities rather than as a political allegiance to the crown. And most of them keep their views to themselves and don't voice them to others - they only express them on the ballot paper on election day.

I think people do know this in a general way, but not necessarily the specifics.

Well this really , when I was growing up in Scotland my area sectarianism was rife. Rangers/celtic orange lodges etc etc. So I didn't think I was ignorant to what it was about, some of the specifics like the voting surprised me.

My mum left Belfast because of the travels as did four of her siblings. She found it incredibly upsetting to watch and said she can't watch the rest of it.

I also found it upsetting.

We were talking about it yesterday, I well remember the checkpoints, paratroopers landing in my uncle's fields, bag searches to go shopping etc from spending summers there. My English friends are shocked when I tell them about it. It's simply ignored here.

There are quite a few Catholic unionists in NI now, and there are quite a few protestant nationalists. We're not all silent or worried about it. We've thankfully come a long way since the very bad old days with more of us wanting a better future for our children, rather than wanting what our grandfather's wanted.

Just the one account @Cheekymaw. Our latest election results were more a message to the DUP to get back to government, than a ringing endorsement of SF.

The Alliance vote held up well. That's where many of the more pragmatic NI'ders gravitate. Being a Catholic Unionist, doesn't mean you vote for a Unionist party. Although @DownNative might.

One thing I learnt in early adulthood is just how very much people’s views are utterly influenced by the family they grew up in. So my friend and I would have screaming rows about NI, but we would never be able to change each other’s minds as she grew up in a family with a father in Sinn Fein, her home and friend’s homes raided by the British army with a worldview determined by that; I an Alliance-voting, middle class Catholic family in one of the peaceful areas mentioned earlier; and DownNative in a family affected directly by IRA violence which goes to explain the frequency and stridency of her input into threads like these. Her posts are best thought of as the Unionist position rather than necessarily the catholic Unionist position (and there can be Protestant Nationalists as well, like Robert Emmet mentioned earlier). I know a lot of catholics who couldn’t give a shite about the “border question” but not many that would deny that catholics faced discrimination or who would seek to minimise Bloody Sunday being a terrible atrocity and a gift to the IRA.
I agree with her that Hume was a great man and I’m still upset he didn’t receive the funeral he deserved because of Covid, and also that those living in ROI can’t be holier than thou when it comes to ignorance - those survey results where under 35s believed the British Army to be the cause of the majority of deaths were a shocking illustration of the extent to which SF have succeeded in rewriting history. But I do also find it shocking to try to deny there was Catholic discrimination or to minimise the wrongdoing carried out by the British State - surely if you hold the British state in high esteem you should expect a wildly higher standard from the State authorities and army than from “terrorists”? It’s shocking that the Army could kill civilians without consequence.

You are correct when you say that "Being a Catholic Unionist, doesn't mean you vote for a Unionist party."

For me, Alliance would be a better fit, especially as their ethos is on Northern Ireland itself. You know, making it better than ever.

The Unionist parties themselves make me despair, to be honest. All that infighting and even Jamie Bryson appearing to pull the DUP's strings. He's a bloody activist rather than an elected representative!

I'm no longer amazed at how many people might assume you'll vote DUP, TUV or UUP. It's like they don't note there's other parties available and even independent candidates. It's a lack of cogent thinking.

I know the British Army weren't responsible for the majority of deaths. However, to compare an State army with paramilitary organisations is insane. The Army shoot citizens of their own country, who they were there to protect. Not just at Bloody Sunday. And those people (some barely out of childhood!) were smeared as IRA and they were not! No consequences ! I'm not talking about hunting down old soldiers who were young lads then, but getting the high ranking ones who ordered the shootings . The Mike Jacksons etc
They should have been jailed . But they won't be .

I think it's common knowledge that "catholic unionists" will be central in any border poll. Head v heart, or heart v bank balance more likely.

I lived in Belfast in the 70s. Troubles didn't / rarely touches some areas of the city. As @DownNative says it could be incredibly localised.

While people have long memories and unacknowledged pain we will never move on.

Eye opener for sure. What an awful time to have lived through. I feel a lot more informed. I too was very ignorant to both sides of the situation.

The British Army may not have been directly responsible, but you are correct that their actions resulted in IRA, INLA etc recruitment.

A few years ago I watched a documentary about the MRF. It was the one that broke me. I saw my street, my house, my neighbours, my family. While the documentary focused on the actions of the MRF at the time, I knew what happened next. The impact it had on the victims families and our whole district, lasting years and covering generations.

The next day I saw 2 of my old neighbours and the three of us cried. And we were angry that we had to grow up with that violence and its repercussions from our own government.