Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland

[shoulditbethishard1]

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

Only just seeing this now, @Aerielview. Good question, to be fair!

We've seen a 5% fall in support for Provisional Sinn Féin in the Republic of Ireland recently. See attachments.

It looks like more and more people there are realising that PSF are not really different from Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. See a tweet from an ROI citizen highlighting this attached from January 2023.

Àontu are emphasising what they call "Mary-Lou's flip-flop shop". Latest issue they've flipped and flopped on is the Hate Speech Bill. See attachment.

We know from the exit poll in 2020 that a united Ireland is NOT a priority for ROI voters. The issues of issues of health, homelessness and housing dominated voters’ minds in the 2020 election to a very high degree.

So, much like with the SNP in Scotland, a vote for PSF is not necessarily and axiomatically a vote for a Border Poll any time soon.

As well known and seasoned political analyst, Mick Fealty noted of the recent council elections in Northern Ireland:

"Sinn Féin’s impressive vote harvesting techniques (82% in Brandywell) and smiling photos are great for short term tactical headlines, but check the strategic dashboard and it shows up as zero gains for the cause of a united Ireland in 25 years."

Simply put, the idea a united Ireland is inevitable is bogus. Indeed, in the Republic of Ireland the idea itself is very much conditional although its a popular aspiration. In other words, support for a united Ireland drops if taxes have to increase to pay for it or things like the flag or anthem have to be changed.

If a united Ireland is going to simply be the Republic of Ireland absorbing Northern Ireland, it will not work. It won't even get majority support in Northern Ireland itself and that is where the issue is ultimately decided as per the Belfast Agreement.

So, the prospect of Provisional Sinn Féin in government in the Republic as well as in Northern Ireland doesn't actually make a united Ireland more likely. In the south, they have voluntary coalition government but parties aren't so willing to partner with PSF. At any rate, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil together still have a higher percentage than PSF.

In Northern Ireland, PSF and the DUP govern together. Unlike in Scotland and Wales, the First Minister in Northern Ireland in practice is actually a joint role. So it doesn't really matter which party takes the top spot. I'd expect the title to be formally changed to Joint First Minister in the next year or two to accurately reflect the political reality as it has been since 1998.

So, while I don't think PSF electoral success necessarily means a united Ireland is near, I also don't think the union is itself guaranteed permanently. But there is nothing inevitable about a united Ireland.

My view is of Provisional Sinn Féin disappeared completely and the SDLP dominated a united Ireland would happen much sooner. The Provisionals and their continued glorification of Provisional murder definitely is a major hindrance to it.

Likewise, if the DUP disappeared the Union would be stronger. The Union is more popular in Northern Ireland than Unionist parties are.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Hope you find it interesting!

From NI, grew up in the Troubles. Lost family, been in bombs etc.
I couldn’t bring myself to watch this at first, but glad I have. It’s exceptional.

it’s EXACTLY what it was like, I haven’t seen anything that come close to capturing what it was like before. And all it took was to have ordinary people telling it how they experienced.
refreshing. No political agenda, just people talking about their experiences.

That's so true @StarmanBobby

For anyone that enjoyed the Terri Hooley/Belfast music scene episode: the biopic of Hooley, "Good Vibrations", is on BBC1 Saturday night/Sunday morning.

Thanks for that @MaudGone I will look it out.

Related to this, here's a couple of articles on punk in Northern Ireland during the Troubles some of you might find interesting:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/alternative-ulster-how-punk-took-on-the-troubles-1.2890644

https://www.dazeddigital.com/art-photography/article/37456/1/how-punk-acted-as-a-peacemaker-for-youth-in-northern-ireland

I'm watching this on iplayer.

I am deeply moved by it. I'm from Dublin. I was a child in single digits in the 70s and I remember it well. We lived near the British embassy in Dublin and I vividly remember scooting up there for a nosey with my best friend. There was a silent vigil in the street. The street was blocked with people holding candles. It was for the hunger strikers.

We followed "who killed who" each week and it seemed retaliation had no end to it.

I started heading over to England for gigs, seeing bands etc as a teenager. I was stopped and searched all the time at the airport. Another time a bunch of friends were travelling to the "monsters of rock" festival. i must have been about 17. I remember we were all searched on the train, in England. We knew it was because we were Irish.

When the IRA was mentioned in England (I started seeing an English boy at one point) all eyes would turn and stare at me. I was shocked at how they perceived it. Just one side, a bunch of madmen (the IRA) and everyone else wholly reasonable.

The gross lack of dignity and integrity that catholics were afforded has blown my mind to this day.

I live in England, I'm here nine years, and I love England. But the ignorance is absolutely shocking.

I've always known to downplay any conversation about NI but I don't know why. I have always said when asked "if you back someone into a corner and prod them long enough at some point they are going to come out fighting" and I leave it there.

I really hope we have a United Ireland some day. For a long time saying that has been like saying something uncouth, the conversation has been a no-go-area - but now I am proud to say it.

It's all still on iPlayer for anyone who missed it first time round

As I said some pages back, Episode 3 devotes considerably more time to Republicanism than any other voice.

Especially that of the RUC police officer's widow.

I have to say that the most glaring omission is any frank acknowledgement of the crimes the 10 Republican hungerstrikers committed to be put in prison in the first place.

Of the ten, seven were PIRA and three were INLA.

The ten republican hunger strikers were all convicted of terrorist offences.

Bobby Sands: Member of the Provisional IRA. One of four people sentenced to 14 years each in September 1977 for possession of a revolver after bomb and gun attack.

Francis Hughes: Member of the Provisional IRA. Serving life imprisonment and concurrent sentences of 83 years for the murder of a soldier and the attempted murder of another.

Patsy O'Hara: Member of the Irish National Liberation Army. Sentenced to eight years in January 1980 for possession of a hand grenade.

Raymond McCreesh: Member of the Provisional IRA. Sentenced in March 1977 for 14 years, and lesser sentences, for attempted murder and possession of a rifle and ammunition.

Joe McDonnell: Member of the Provisional IRA. Sentenced to 14 years in September 1977 for the same reasons as Bobby Sands.

Kevin Lynch: Member of the Irish National Liberation Army. Sentenced to 10 years in December 1977 for a number of offences including conspiracy to disarm members of the security forces, taking part in a so-called punishment shooting, and the taking of legally held shotguns.

Martin Hurson: Member of the Provisional IRA. Convicted in November 1977. Given 20 years for possession of landmines and conspiracy, as well as two other concurrent sentences of 15 and five years respectively.

Thomas McElwee: Member of the Provisional IRA. Sentenced to 20 years in September 1977 for manslaughter and possession of explosives.

Mickey Devine: Member of the Irish National Liberation Army. Sentenced to 12 years imprisonment in June 1977 for possession of rifles and ammunition.

Kieran Doherty: Member of the Provisional IRA. Sentenced to 18 years in January 1978 for possession of firearms and explosives and four years for commandeering a car.

In 2021, Provisional Sinn Féin created controversy when they eulogised Thomas McElwee and airbrushed his victim out of the story as if she didn't matter.

Alliance leader Naomi Long said of PSF/PIRAs Thomas McElwee:

"McElwee was sentenced to 20 years for possession of explosives and the murder of Yvonne Dunlop, a 26-year-old mum burnt alive when one of the firebombs destroyed her clothes shop. Her story matters: it must not be erased."

A firebomb had been left at the Alley Katz boutique in Bridge Street.

Yvonne Dunlop, a mother of young boys, was working in the store and was checking a shopping bag left by two women when a firebomb started.

She shouted a warning to her nine-year-old son who escaped but she could not get out and was burned to death.

More could be said on the various crimes listed above, but this gives enough detail, I think.

The biggest demand Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA were making of the UK Government during the 1981 hungerstrikes was their prisoners should continue to retain special category status.

Special category (or "political") status was de facto prisoner of war (POW) status.

But the UK Government steadfastly refused to concede that demand which would have been a massive propaganda boon to the Provisionals if the Thatcher Government had given in.

The UK Government was right to criminalise the Provisionals and all other members of the various terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland.

Indeed, under International Humanitarian Law terrorist organisations such as the PIRA and UVF have NO right to Prisoner of War status aka Special Category.

"....combatants who fail to distinguish themselves and are not, as a result, entitled to prisoner-of-war status."

The PIRA and all terrorist groups in Northern Ireland constantly broke the prohibition against perfidy in International Humanitarian Law because they deliberately broke down the distinction between civilians and combatants.

No Government in Europe would have agreed that any terrorist group is entitled to prisoner-of-war status.

The Loyalist terrorist groups did take part in the hungerstrikes at first alongside the Republicans. But they abandoned it when it was made clear to them how unpopular that was within Unionism.

It was the Republican leadership who carried on with it knowing there was no reasonable prospect of success. Rogelio Alonso's book, IRA And Armed Struggle contains some very frank admissions from IRA men that their leadership knew it was futile but did not stop it. Richard O'Rawe was one of them, I think but I'll have to check the records.

All this information, had it been included in the episode, may well have elicited different responses in viewers had they known this beforehand.

Came to see if there was a thread about this and so glad there is. I've been in bed all week with covid which has been awful, but I'm so glad it's given me an opportunity to watch this.

I'm a 40yr old who grew up in London and my understanding of "The Troubles" until I was about 25 literally was just that a lot of my childhood was spent worrying that the IRA was going to bomb my city (in fact I was on a bus nearby when the Canary Wharf bomb went off in 1996 and we felt the blast). Beyond that I knew very little- not sure I even knew that the IRA and Sinn Féin were linked, even though I remember the GFA very clearly.

Then, as a teacher, in about 2010 I read Bog Child by Siobhan Dowd in preparation to teach to a year 8 group. This was the first I'd ever heard of the Hunger Strikes (which happened a couple of years before I was born) and I couldn't believe that this HUGE historical moment had never even come up in my world. Never heard about it at school, parents never really mentioned it (and they fucking hate Thatcher!)

It was after reading that that I started to take an interest in reading about The Troubles and I couldn't believe what I hadn't known. Even down to the Shankill Bombing in 1993, which I remembered as being a very small news story as a kid compared to the coverage we got on our news about Canary Wharf (despite the huge disparity in deaths).

This documentary has further opened my eyes to what a huge part of British history The Troubles are.

I don't know if this has been mentioned already (haven't read the full thread yet) but other documentaries that I've found hugely helpful in learning about this topic are (which made sense of why Brexit has been such a terrible thing for the Good Friday Agreement) and (also with PK).

I hope that this is a period of a history that will start to be seriously taught in our schools because it's a travesty that your average English person without Irish links doesn't know about all of this.

Amazing documentary and I'm so glad it's been made and is available.

Thank you for your post and links @YokoOnosBigHat.

The bomb wasn't in Canary Wharf, but in South Quays, Docklands which is south of it. Not far from the DLR station, IIRC.

I found your post very interesting @YokoOnosBigHat. I agree it's something that should be taught in schools. The problem is always with presenting the 'right' way of things because everyone has a different perspective and it's hard to just stick to facts with such an emotive subject. One poster has been spamming this thread with their views as if they're the oracle on the Troubles. The truth is that it's complex and definitely not black and white. DP and I grew up on opposite sides of the 'divide' and it's incredible how different our experiences were. He had to leave his home in the middle of the night as paramilitaries ethnically (or rather religiously) cleansed the area. He spent weeks living in a school. I can't even begin to imagine the effect that would have on a child. Catholic families were turfed out of our street. I was good friends with the kids. I lived in a Protestant working class area and, although nothing directly happened to me, I was utterly traumatised by the things I saw, including posters and leaflets of dead bodies being passed around, and one time a man walked into the playground of my primary school and fired shots into the air in a show of strength. DP and I met in our late teens and we saw a man blow himself up trying to bomb a police station. I look back and can't believe my parents even let me out the front door, especially now that I have children of my own. But that was life then and we had to get on with it. I had loads of Catholic friends in my early teens and they talked about the divisions in their schools over the hunger strikes, whereas in my Protestant state grammar, it was never discussed. It was just assumed we were all against the hunger strikers. The book 'Ten Men Dead' certainly opened my eyes.

I agree that it is a fantastic documentary.

@DownNative it was indeed, in fact I worked in the restored area of the South Quay Plaza for a while some years later. However, the two places are incredibly close and locally, where I grew up and still live pretty near to, it's colloquially referred to as "the Canary Wharf Bombing". Even the Wikipedia Page for the incident states that it's often "erroneously referred to as the Canary Wharf bombing".

But, I stand corrected. Hope that helps.

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective @Tessisme - it's really interesting that you talk about how "nothing" happened to you and yet you were traumatised. It's so clear that even people who were "just" civilians living amongst it all back then must have been/be suffering from PTSD in significant numbers. In the 100 Years of the Union doc that I referred to in my earlier post, Patrick Kielty makes the point while walking around Belfast that he's looking at the crowds of people and wondering how many others are carrying around the burden of post traumatic stress disorder that he's lived with since his father's murder, 35years prior, even if their stories aren't as dramatic as his.

For me, it seems mad that that was a way of life for you guys and yet I know from my own life experiences that even frankly mad shit can become normalised very quickly. If you were growing up on that environment, you knew no different, so of course that was usual. But it's interesting that you feel it harder now you have kids of your own.

The hunger strikers are a really mad thing to me- whilst I understand in principle having beliefs so strong that you'd die for them, I can't imagine feeling that about my country. Maybe because I'm privileged that England is the type of country so long established that it's irrelevant or maybe because I just don't care enough. But even if I could understand that, a lot of those men had kids, which is what baffles me. I can't imagine leaving my children for an ideology. But then maybe that's my privilege showing and that's a really ignorant thing to say.

Out of interest- and feel free not to answer this if you're not comfortable!- do you still live in Northern Ireland and do you feel that there's still a religious divide? Especially having a partner who was bought up in such a different situation to you when it comes to religion. Religion has played so little part in my life- one culturally Jewish parent, one culturally C of E parent, I've never even been christened and my family are very much atheists now- that the idea of it being so defining is impossible for me to fully comprehend.

You're so welcome. Those two docs are really worthwhile for anyone who's not seen them. I thought Kielty was a bit of a prat prior to the first one, but it totally turned me around to him. He did a live show on it which I went to see, it was very moving (as well as very funny!)

The BBC website for the Once Upon a Time... doc here is also really interesting if you haven't seen it. Lots of links and reading suggestions.

I still live in Northern Ireland @YokoOnosBigHat. Although I was brought up Protestant, I found out when I was in my teens that my mum was a lapsed Catholic. She had been brought up in a mixed marriage and I was surprised to discover that her mother was from a very republican background. My grandmother's family disowned and disinherited her when she married my grandfather. My dad grew up in one of the most loyalist areas of Belfast - the Shankhill - and yet he and my mum made a life together in the late sixties. They never discussed politics at home and my dad was unusual for a Shankhill man in that he considered himself Irish as well as British and was very proud of both identities. His siblings were a different story! So there have always been some people, even from extreme political backgrounds (my grandmother's relatives notwithstanding!), who could see beyond religion. I think things have definitely improved here, but they are far from perfect. There will always be bigots I think, because some people just have to belong to a tribe to feel validated. But then again, who am I to judge, when I don't know their own personal histories? DP and I are both atheists and we are bringing our children up free of religion, on the understanding that they will never be judged if they find themselves drawn to Christianity or any other religion. We live in a very mixed area and honestly couldn't give a monkey's what religion people are or about their political leanings. My eldest is at an integrated school and his brother will be joining him next year. The school is massively oversubscribed which in itself is very heartening. There is definitely a desire for change. But so many past traumas need to be acknowledged and dealt with. It's an absolute minefield.

@YokoOnosBigHat thanks for your post and your perspective.

I think as an English person you can't really comprehend the hurt of being colonised and repressed by a foreign regime as obviously England has only ever colonised other places so the concept would be pretty foreign to you. So to you the hunger strikes seem incomprehensible.

But if you came from a community denied housing, voting, labour and educational rights in a society where you and your neighbours who shared your religion were turfed out of your houses which were then set on fire by your neighbours you could easily see how people were radicalised. Also a lot of the men who were in the hunger strike and the IRA at that time would have been rounded up and interned without trial so that was a good recruiter for the IRA. And that's before we go into the British army murdering civilians in the street and the police not serving the nationalist community.

I absolutely agree with every word of this.

Interesting because this article from that area makes the point that the Docklands and Isle Of Dogs were basically forgotten about in the national press coverage.

From the media and PSF/PIRA point of view, it's sexier to call it Canary Wharf bomb. For PIRA, it had an added propaganda side where it suggested they were still strong. However, an Irish PM explained they do this to give that impression when the reality is the other way round. That's why when you read the Belfast Agreement alongside PIRAs demands over time you realise the South Quays bomb didn't get them the concessions they were looking for.

I see some have again attempted to deride my input. But those contributions is simply full of the history, including PIRAs own words. You can see what I've thought of the episodes so far and I've still to share my views on the final two episodes.

The problem for the Provos is Catholics who see through their bullshit. During the Troubles, a clear majority of Catholics rejected PSF/PIRA for the SDLP who completely opposed PIRA all along. Some here would rather this wasn't mentioned. It's certainly NOT covered in those episodes!

But it's relevant.

Forgot to link article @YokoOnosBigHat!

https://www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2017/03/20-years-after-the-docklands-bomb/

I absolutely acknowledge that as an English person I can't even begin to understand that injustice felt by being invaded and wilfully repressed by a foreign power. I mean, I get it, I'm the worst type of English too- a Londoner (well almost the worst kind, I'm not a posh Londoner, that would be worse!)- and so I totally acknowledge that I just can't comprehend what it must feel like to be in the colonised group. Even talking to northern English people about how they feel that London's ideals and culture is inflicted upon them highlights to me what a privileged group I'm in, let alone other nationalities in the British Isles.

My only tiny chink of any kind of possible comprehension of what it might feel like is the anger I feel when I think of my Eastern European ancestors that were lost or dispossessed during the 1930s. Despite having catholic Irish ancestry way back (they came here post-famine and carried on the Catholicism long enough that one of my great granny's was bought up Catholic) I find it much easier to feel anger for what my Jewish ancestors went through, perhaps because there's a more direct link (my father was raised Jewish).

And everything you say about the hunger strikers makes absolute sense in that context- I just can't imagine in my scope of experience giving up my life for an ideology, even if I get why they might, is more what I meant. I know that's an amazing privilege, to be so secure in my place in the world and how I'm treated in it that it's actually basically unimaginable. I'm probably not articulating this very well, but I hope you even half understand what I mean.

By God though, this documentary has really made me deeply ashamed of the strangely and almost uniquely English habit of thinking that we need to inflict our ideals and culture on every other fucker in the world (see also America, but they're our fault too really, aren't they). And the worst of it is that this fucking government would do it all again tomorrow if they could; they give zero fucks about anyone but the English and keeping our ideals and putting our perceived needs first, whoever and whatever it damages (e.g. Brexit, the border in the Irish Sea etc. etc.) They should all be made to sit down and watch all of this documentary.

This is really heartening to hear. Equally I've got friends in the Republic who were bought up catholic, went to catholic schools but who are choosing mixed religion/non religious schools for their kids now. I'm an atheist too, went to non-denominational schools so religious schooling seems baffling to me tbh. I did a small part of my teaching practice in a catholic school here in London and it was eye opening, it seems a very weird and sheltered way to educate anyone to me.

I'm so glad that you still live in NI and haven't felt that you have to leave. That's really lovely to hear. And I'm glad that you're bringing up in a new generation there with new ideas and new attitudes. That's really the best legacy of it all, that that's now possible.

@YokoOnosBigHat there's also the fact that people didn't actually think that Margaret Thatcher would allow 10 men to die. They obviously went into the hunger strike hoping for a different outcome. They were just looking for the reinstatement of political prisoner status which they had previously had.

@DownNative I don't know if you're familiar with the area but South Quay basically is Canary Wharf. Okay it's not the Canada Square building that gives CW its name but you can walk between that building and SQ in less than five minutes over the bridge that goes across South Dock. That article talks about how the CS building wasn't damaged, but it's semantics, that whole area is known as Canary Wharf. Also CW is tall, you can see it from all over London, it makes sense to call it "the Canary Wharf bombing" because then everyone knows exactly where you mean, South Quay would be a bit more ambiguous outside of East London.

That's an interesting article, but all it really tells me is that poor Londoners in one of its poorest boroughs were overlooked in favour of the moneyed gang a few hundred yards up the road... that's not really that unusual, especially the way news is reported. I'm not familiar with the area, but I imagine that there were ordinary citizens homes and poorer areas that were wrecked or destroyed in 9/11, but we don't think "that was an attack on Joe Bloggs flat", we think of Cantor Fitzgerald and millions of dollars being wiped off of Wall Street in half an hour (and that's who they were targeting, let's face it).

I can't comment on your opinions- they're interesting and certainly add to the over all tapestry of this story, but it seems that your views and experiences are unusual from what others have commented. I would certainly like to read more from sources that support your views and show it wasn't entirely unusual in NI at the time, if you can source any.