Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland

[shoulditbethishard1]

Thought provoking, upsetting and realised that there’s still so much more I don’t know about the troubles

Did anyone else watch it?

@Girliefriendlikespuppies the following goes a long way to answering your question about who gains from separating the people.

It's still relevant today and still happens, albeit on a smaller scale than during the Troubles. Especially the early 1970s.

"The IRA was now a reality inside the housing estates of Belfast and Derry and they had to be dealt with. The first example of this was during the movement of refugees. The IRA might put a Protestant family out of their home in a mainly Catholic area, then help a Catholic family move into that house, usually one similarly intimidated by Loyalists. The paramilitaries on both sides were, in effect, left free to allocate houses and those tenancies were retroactively made legitimate by the Housing Trust. Rent books were issued and electricity supplies turned on."

Yet not every family would accept the diktats of the Republican and Loyalist terrorist groups.

"Anne Tannahill's family refused to be part of that system, rejected housing offers made by Loyalists and demanded to be rehoused properly and officially. Eventually the Housing Trust gave them a flat in Dunmurry."

The above excerpts are taken from Malachi O'Doherty's book, "The Year Of Chaos".

At this point, I must explain a little about Malachi's background. First, his name is very clearly a Catholic one, if I can put it like that. He was born in a place called Muff (stop yer sniggering!) In County Donegal. His father later got a job in Belfast so the family moved to an area called Riverdale. Most of their neighbours were Catholics.

Malachi, due to where he lived, frequently came into contact with members of Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA. The Republican enforcer, Bobby Storey, once slammed Malachi up against a wall in the Felon's Club because Malachi wouldn't stop criticising the Provos in his articles for Belfast newspapers. Storey was massive and Malachi is a small mam.

Malachi is a small 'n' Nationalist which means he provisionally would like a united Ireland, but is also happy enough being part of the UK. So, he's NOT a militant like the Republicans.

Anyway, you can now see and understand how Belfast and Londonderry's housing estates sorted themselves into Republican/Nationalist/Catholic and Loyalist/Unionist/Protestant areas such as the Falls and Shankill roads.

This cannot be said to have been the doing of politicians who also often lived in the same areas as the terrorists.

If you didn't do what either set of terrorists dictated, you could well end up dead. Often after being tortured first....

I also recommend Malachi's book, "Can Ireland Be One?".

Forgot to attach the book.

Is this interview written or on film? I’d love to hear his perspective

Watching this, I am surprised at the fact that some of the ex-IRA people - Ricky throughout and the blonde woman in episode 4 which I’m just watching now - don’t really seem to have remorse about what they did.

The UVF man and the ex-soldier had some remorse or some circumspectness (is that a word?) about what they’d done. But it feels a bit uneven?

(My family are northern Irish catholics and northern Irish Protestants. They all abhor the IRA)

I have watched episode 3 and have the same impression as you. But, crucially, I am not in the least bit surprised that Richard O'Rawe has zero remorse.

That's never been something O'Rawe has ever expressed which isn't surprising since he comes from an IRA family. And lived in the Belfast IRA's "headquarters", if you will, in Ballymurphy.

Ballymurphy is the area that 15 year old Bernard Teggart lived in the early 1970s. His father, Daniel Teggart, was killed on Bloody Sunday, so Republicans always, always use Daniel's death as a political weapon.

What might shock our GB residents is that the Provisional I.R.A murdered Daniel's son, Bernard in 1974 (IIRC). Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA spent decades lying about why they murdered Bernard. They falsely claimed he was a tout.

But Bernard had learning difficulties and a reported mental age of 8. He had come across members of the IRA carrying out a robbery and told them that was a bad thing to do. That was it - murdered by the Provos.

And his lifeless body left on waste ground in Ballymurphy as a visible warning to everyone else in the Ballymurphy area who disagreed with the Provos. Or thought of speaking out against them.

Bernard had a twin brother who the IRA let go.

Know all this and then remember what the Nationalist SDLP leader John Hume said about Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA:

"There is not a single injustice in Northern Ireland today that justifies the taking of a single human life.

What is more, the vast majority of the major injustices suffered not only by the Nationalist community but by the whole community are direct consequences of the IRA campaign.

If I were to lead a civil rights campaign in Northern Ireland today, the main target would be the IRA.

It is they who carry out the greatest infringements of human and civil rights, with their murders and bombings, their executions without trial, their kneecappings and punishment shootings.

The most fundamental human right is the right to life. Who in Northern Ireland takes the most human lives?"

Who here can argue with Hume on this fact?,

Let's end on Hume's sarcasm in regards to the Provisional Republican Movement's attitude to their own atrocities:

"The Brits are to blame for everything....even their (PSF/PIRA'S) own atrocities!"

You can, therefore, see why those supportive of the Provisionals require as many people as possible to believe, agree, support, accept that they weren’t responsible due to the societal malaise.

Myth making can be powerful things, unfortunately. The issue is not one of truth for militants are not interested in that. Rather, it is one of perception which militants ARE very interested in.

And this must be kept in mind when listening to the likes of Richard O'Rawe and Bernadette McDonnell.

Hume was clear that it was the IRA who were the most destructive force throughout the Troubles.

There is much I can say about episode 3, but I will watch the last 16 minutes of it first. It must be said that this episode is the most problematic one so far because it implies justification for the IRA terrorism.

And that has real world effects for Northern Ireland today because it reconfirms the same justification Saoradh and the so-called New IRA use.

Hume had very strong words for the glorification of Republican violence too.

@shoulditbethishard1 it’s a film on the beeb website. Advertised at the end of each episode.

This is really interesting, thank you. I didn’t know the names.

Wait until you get to episode 4 and 5. Paints loyalist terrorists as more murderous than the IRA, imo.

Ah, thanks for the heads up about episode 4 and 5. If that's the case, then the actual statistics of the Troubles will shoot that down.

Regarding the murder of Bernard Teggart by the Provisionals, they and their supporters never mention him. I have debated a Republican in the past who knew Daniel Teggart and always uses his death to point score.

But he always ignores what the Provisionals did to his son, Bernard. And this guy is actually a family friend of the Teggarts!

Unfortunately, in my experience the dehumanisation of victims is so strong they will often be highly selective about what they're outraged about. The dehumanisation of Troubles victims is most acute when it comes to Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA. I may expand on this aspect depending on what's covered by episodes 4 and 5.

@DownNative are you an academic / historian? Is this your job? You’re very well read about it all. Or is it just your history and a bit of a specialist subject?

In some of my previous posts, I said I'm from Northern Ireland and grew up during the 1980s as well as 1990s. The Provos did murder a relative and attempted to murder my parents, sibling and myself. This was more than 30 years ago now.

On top of that, I have read a shit ton of material on the Troubles because I wanted to understand more. I especially wanted to know how the Provisionals rationalised all the death and destruction as well.

I have a number of books on the Troubles too in my own personal library. Most of my collection I've read, some I haven't. Currently, I'm writing down my and my family's perspective on the Troubles so that our descendants in future can understand why we never turned to violence ourselves as well as why we never became Republicans or Nationalists even though we are a Catholic family.

It's my history, really. Speaking of my family, it was always very important to us that none of us were/are sectarian. Under no circumstances would the family tolerate any of us joining terrorist groups such as the IRA or UDA. The family was tight with strong foundations and that kept you from being part of something profoundly inhuman. We had Catholic and Protestant friends too.

Very important.

It'd be amazing to do all this for a living though! 🤣

I see you said your family is a mixed one (as we say in NI!) with Norn Iron Catholics and Protestants in the tree.

Sounds like yours had a similar perspective and ethos to mine. Am I right?

@DownNative is giving a unionist analysis which some people are taking as neutral.

Re loyalist v republicans, it has to be said that loyalist paramilitaries targeted civilians in a way that wasn't the norm with republicans. Clearly republicans killed civilians but usually due to a catastrophic mistake re calling in warnings. Loyalists openly murdered Catholic civilians for being Catholic. They didn't have beef with the British security forces, far from it and in many cases they worked together, so I guess they had to go for civilians if republican paramilitaries weren't available.

Have only seen the first episode so far, but wanted to correct the impression given above that the need to be a homeowner was not fully explained in the ‘one man one vote’ section. In fact they made it absolutely plain that this was the case, and that it would also have affected Protestants who rented. The clip from a programme made at the time did also state that the rule was for local elections. This clip in fact demonstrated that even if someone owned their home, only the homeowner and his wife (as it was described at the time) would have a vote - young adults still living at home would have no vote. The issue was that this rule, while ‘only’ apparently discriminating against working class people (shocking enough when the rest of the UK had changed in 1945), disproportionately affected Catholics, along with other civil rights issues such as poor housing and lack of access to jobs.

I am ashamed to say that I noticed all this because like some other posters on this thread this was not something I was aware of at all before watching the programme.

My Catholic family, certainly. They mostly consider themselves Irish but they are staunchly anti-violence and maintained that position through the troubles. It can’t have been easy. My granddad was a business owner, and members of his staff were murdered - by the IRA, I’d add. My aunt recalls that certain professions were not open to Catholics because of the threat of murder / ‘assassination’ / blackmail, and one of my uncles remembered the snipers on the roofs of Queens University during the graduation ceremonies, to protect the students. My grandparents were the first generation to live in the North though and were both born in Ireland - although barely over the border. Even my younger cousins consider themselves to be Irish simply as a fact, not as an opinion or political statement: simply a fact.

The Protestants are more mixed in their views. They’re mostly less well off - with an history of being very poor - and working class and there are a few Orange marchers in there. Lots of them live in areas where there are a lot of flags flying and pavements painted with red white and blue. I haven’t delved too deep into that history and I’m not as close to them. But since the 90s several of my uncles have dedicated themselves to ecumenical and cross-community work, including on the Falls Road and Shankill Road. Lots of dedicated pacifists. I’d say they consider themselves staunchly British. My grandad is one of the most ardent monarchists I know.

My parents came to university in England to escape the troubles and its long shadow over their lives. I don’t think either really considered ever returning.

The wedding must have been interesting.

@DownNative I'd love to hear your thoughts on the prospect of Sinn Féin coming into power in the next general election in the republic in 2 years time. Opinion polls continue to show growing support for them, way ahead of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.
They would then be the strongest party both north and south of the border.
What are your feelings on that?

You haven't said too much about loyalist paramilitaries @DownNative. As a Catholic I found/find them terrifying. They killed fewer than the IRA (about half?), but their attacks were mostly sectarian. So they targeted random Catholic civilians and that's who they mainly murdered (78% of cases). By contrast 8% of IRA attacks were sectarian, most targets were British forces or alleged informers and of course so many others were caught up in the crossfire and bombings too. I hate and condemn the IRA, but the targeting of random Catholic civilians by loyalists was also truly terrifying and you haven't mentioned them or condemned them as much for some reason - unconscious bias as a Unionist maybe? I think it's an oversight on MN in particular, because lots of people outside Ireland aren't really aware of more than the IRA.

Watched a couple of episodes last night and thought it was very sobering. I was born in the late 70s in Belfast and think it's a good balanced show.

Thanks to @DownNative for your commentary - it's great reading the John Hume quotes in particular.

I agree with @Swiftorhawk that most people in the UK think the only paramilitaries operating in Northern Ireland were the IRA. They don't know of the Loyalist paramilitaries or their collusions sometimes with the British Army and or the RUC police force and or MI5.
I'd say few in the UK would know that Loyalists planted bombs in the Republic of Ireland - the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
I don't believe in the bullet and the bomb on any side.
I think integrated education for all would have been a start............

Just to add that I don't mean what I said above to be a criticism of @DownNative . She is clearly very well read in this area and of course has an immense amount of personal experience from living in NI and it is so interesting to read what she says. What I said is just a caveat really that everybody comes at this from their own particular background and experience, and so one person's account isn't going to be enough.

The different voices captured is why 'Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland' is so profound (so I hear; I must confess I haven't had a chance to watch it yet!)

Completely agree @LadyEloise1 - it's a sin that education isn't properly integrated & it's always annoyed me that that's the one thing both sides agree on keeping separate (for their own divisive ends!)

I watched this past night, I can't find the words other than fascinating to watch and listen to what went on, the paramilitary men who appeared to have turned over a new leaf looked haunted and traumatised.

The children of that poor woman who was murdered 😢

Last night*

I watched the last one last night & thought it was very well done overall, however can't believe they completely omitted the Omagh bombing. Don't understand how that wasn't even acknowledged in this type of programme.