Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?

[hellobethyname]

Just watching it now

I've changed my mind . She was a child , groomed , no idea what she was getting into .

I don't think we should demonise one child forever . There are much bigger threats out there that people don't even realise.

I just watched it.

I have no sympathy towards her or believe she was groomed. She lacks empathy, is cold, and still doesn't seem to grasp the enormity of the consequences of what she has done. Quite psychopathic. The only thing she realises is that she'll have a better life here, even in prison and is playing this with all that she's got.

She wasn't some poor child like a lot of posters are making her out to be. She was 15! Making a mistake at 15 is getting pissed down your local park or pulling someone you shouldn't. This is something else entirely.

Actions have consequences and this is hers.

Errrrrm if you read my earlier post I said there is no comparison between the type of grooming that happened in Rotherham versus what happened with Shamima.

I think walking around with ISIS insignia is pretty apparent to any parent or family member.

Having £17 million invested in the school did nothing to stop the 9 female students being groomed by a terrorist group.

I've just watched it and my opinion about her remains the same as it always has - i.e. that she was a silly child who was groomed and radicalised and the treatment she has been subjected to is absolutely shocking.

She was 15 and clearly did a terrible and really stupid thing. The intense hatred that is directed towards her and the insane level of scapegoating she is having to suffer is astounding. I was shocked by the lack of sympathy towards her then (especially in light of what she has endured), and it baffles me that it continues.

Everyone has a right to a fair trial, even the guilty.

If she has committed a crime then let her be tried and sentenced for it.

A baby whose mother OR father is British is British by descent if he is born abroad. So that little baby was British and totally innocent.

I didn't say Rotherham. Sexual exploitation is so much bigger and wider than that.

And children, particularly teenagers often express extreme views, they take things as absolutes. They're very open to influence, gullible even. They aren't critical thinkers yet. Their brains aren't developed enough for it. It's why they're so vulnerable to abuse and grooming. The vast, vast majority of children with extreme views crumble under the lightest of questioning of their beliefs, hang their beliefs on a badge without a true foundation and ultimately grow out of it. Unfortunately Shamima was forced to act on her belief before she could grow out of it. And due to her continued abuse she has never been able to develop the critical thinking and maturity of thought to understand the abuse she has suffered. She's likely got PTSD, a symptom of which is doubling down on the belief that what has happened wasn't that bad. It can take people who have experienced abuse decades to come to terms with the abuse, to accept it was abuse.

She was failed massively by us (the UK). By her school, by her parents, by the authorities. And we are continuing to fail her.

I also believe we are continuing to fail most victims of abuse (any abuse).

No, you are wrong.

Even The Guardian article, that YOU have sent, says this:

"British nationality law allows the home secretary to remove a person’s UK citizenship if doing so is deemed to be “conducive to the public good”. However, it is illegal to revoke a person’s nationality if doing so would leave them stateless."

Javid was aware that Shamima only had until she was 21 (she was 19 at the time, still a teen) to claim citizenship in Bangladesh, but had no way of claiming it, but still used this as a way of legally stripping her of her citizenship, which was effectively a legal loophole - something the Tories are great at - but that in real terms and ethically, is illegal.

The state minister of foreign affairs of Bangladesh, Shahriar Alam, said in a statement to the British media just days after Javid’s announcement that Begum was not a citizen of Bangladesh and would be denied entry to the country.

Again, from YOUR Guardian article:

"A two-day hearing in the case in November heard that Begum was still considered by MI5 as a national security risk because although she had travelled out as a minor, she had “aligned” with the terror group.

Lord Pannick QC, representing Begum, said she was unable to put her side of the case properly from al-Roj detention camp where she was being held. He told the court she would be at risk of physical harm if she spoke by mobile phone to her British lawyers."

Once again, the hands of the Supreme Court were tied; they acknowledged that Shamima had no way of having a fair trial whilst her life was under threat in a detainment camp, but they have no choice but to take MI5's word that she is still classed as a "risk," but MI5 do not need to provide any further reasoning or evidence, because again, their evidence of who is and isn't a threat cannot be disputed by the courts, amounting to another legal loophole, but in real terms, they knowingly deprived her of her right to a fair trial, which is illegal.

From the Human Rights Watch website:

"The Court ruled that [Shamima's] due process rights are indefinitely suspended until she can play “an effective part in her appeal without the public’s safety being compromised,” but gave no indication of when that might be and left the decision in the hands of the government. This leaves Begum stuck in a detention camp in northeast Syria where thousands are held without any legal basis, in conditions so dire they amount to inhumane treatment or even torture."

Essentially, Shamima is a pawn in the government's own agenda, and there the hands of the courts are tied.

"The UK Government should heed growing calls from security experts, UN officials, and human rights groups, and immediately repatriate Shamima and the other British women and children. To turn its back on them is not only a legal and moral aberration, but a long-term security risk. Leaving them in detention camps leaves them vulnerable to radicalization and the dire conditions can serve as a recruitment tool. If we have learnt anything from the last 20 years, it’s that our security is never served by undermining human rights." www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/02/uk-supreme-court-has-failed-shamima-begum

Seriously so many stupid comments on this post! a medieval jihadist?? So the Brits never did anything bad did they, James/William/Chalres what other names should we not use?

@MarkWithaC How about this post then from @PussyGaPaw

Snowflakes or what

PussyGaPaw · Today 13:58
I've just watched it and my opinion about her remains the same as it always has - i.e. that she was a silly child who was groomed and radicalised and the treatment she has been subjected to is absolutely shocking.

She was 15 and clearly did a terrible and really stupid thing. The intense hatred that is directed towards her and the insane level of scapegoating she is having to suffer is astounding. I was shocked by the lack of sympathy towards her then (especially in light of what she has endured), and it baffles me that it continues.

Another snowflake defending the indefensible. Why not offer her your home as her bail address, you too would get on like a house on fire. Till she blows you up

I'll ask again: where does that poster say 'all should be forgiven' or 'bless her poor little socks'?

It clearly acknowledges that she 'did a terrible and really stupid thing'. And yes, it also suggests a disproportionate amount of scapegoating and that it shouldn't be beyond the human imagination to have some sympathy, given the context.

What I'm talking about here is nuance, and an awareness that things are not black and white. I am assure that is within your ability to understand.

I'd still like to hear how much say you imagine she had in getting pregnant, given her circumstances.

Oh you are hard aren't you, where have I defended her,? I am on the fence actually not that you would care but it really fucks me off with stupid comments, like Muslims (I am not a muslim by the way) can't use historical names because that's wrong? so how is this different from the west?

Well we’re did she say she was raped? She chose to open her legs to her husband and says she doesn’t regret having children!

Does she appear contrite and full of regret for her actions? Why don’t you not contact her legal team and set up a go fund me page for her since you have so much sympathy. To me and many others she can rot in hell.

Not read the full thread but just started watching the documentary. So far it looks like a videoed version of the podcast- word for word.

I don't agree with her being stateless. The implications this precedent sets are deeply concerning. The law in this country exists to deliver justice and its absolutely fundamental that we don't withdraw that from anyone, no matter their crime (or the whole system collapses).

I do believe she was groomed and radicalised. I f she comes back here she should be imprisoned for life - I'm not confident she no longer presents a danger.

What strikes me is her level of self absorption. There are many valid points which show how she's also been a victim but I don't believe she has the emotional capacity to reflect truthfully on her suggestion.

I also think there's an element of trauma to her, she seems to be in deep denial about the seriousness of her crimes. As to the comments about not loving her children enough - as a society we excel at demonising women for this but in the circumstances in which her children were conceived and born I don't think its surprising or indicative of evil.

She will never come back to this country, I don't see it happening. But its appalling and terrifying that the government revoked her citizenship.

It is possible to condemn her for her crimes anf to acknowledge she still poses a danger to the UK while recognising how she was groomed, how she has been a victim of the terror group too and that it is wrong for her to be made stateless. They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I also fail to see why we give more understanding and forgiveness to children and women sexually trafficked, preyed upon by gangster and to boys, teenagers and young men who are made into child soldiers on other continents.

Do you have sympathy for Thompson and Venables who tortured and murdered Jamie Bulger aged 10? Clearly they weren’t born that way. Or probably most of the abusers of children who often experienced similar themselves as children.

You can feel sorry for their miserable lives that have been ruined by the actions of others and themselves but ultimately you deal with what you have. We could keep her in prison here or she can stay in world she helped perpetuate over there.

This is what I said yesterday and mnhq thought my comment was against guidelines. But it’s right what you say they were children brought up with neglect so surely it wasn’t there fault was it?

I respectfully disagree and I believe you are being far too lenient in your analysis of what has happened. I also know a lot about grooming and my degree lent itself to a lot of studies on terrorism. I also hail from a country that has far more experience of terrorism than the U.K. has in its entire history. We have seen it all.

There is being groomed, through exploiting vulnerabilities and other aspects of a child’s mind yet developed, and then there are children like Shamima.

Ultimately, children from a very young age are brought up to understand the concept of right and wrong. She was not groomed to become a suicide bomber; or a physical terrorist which so often happens in grooming; she was influenced by local Imams initially, and then somebody on the internet to join an organisation which was widely broadcasted as violent and extreme. She initially sought them out online.

It is cold blooded and against human nature IMO to actually see the things ISIS were doing and still wish to join them. The kind of videos we all saw are absolutely stomach churning and most adults could not watch them. On that note, I would add I don’t think there’s any coming back for any child that is able to to watch this kind of thing and NOT feel upset or disgusted. It is an issue with them not an issue of grooming. If you look into the psychology of children who do not shy from death or violence you typically find them to behave similarly as adults.

The British media, as they do, sensationalised ISIS to such a degree that I don’t think anybody here DIDN’T know about what they were doing, and most of us unwillingly saw a lot more of what was happening than we wanted to.

Her parents, would have been very aware of what was going on in Iraq and Syria, similarly they, or her sister would have seen their daughter wearing ISIS memorabilia. Children throughout the school knew Shamima for trying to influence others to join ISIS. It was clearly common knowledge and parents in tight knit communities do talk. Are you seriously suggesting her parents didn’t know?

I don’t believe this is grooming, I believe she has grown up in an environment where it was NOT taboo to sympathise with aspects of what ISIS stood for, and this was a progression on from that. It is a serious problem in the U.K. and exists in pockets of the country on a very serious level. I believe everyone around her is also to blame for this (school, family etc)

I will not bore anyone with the ins and outs of terrorist recruitment, but typically vulnerabilities such as lack of money, lack of money for the family, past shames or hidden secrets are used to manipulate young children or adults into making decisions they will regret. In certain places money is given to the family of a ‘martyr’ for example, in exchange. Or maybe somebody has found to be a homosexual and this is used as ‘redemption.’ This was none of this at all. I think it goes much further than any of that.

So, for that reason, I think she is too far gone to be able to actually feel remorse for what she has done, aside from feeling sorry for herself. She is no different, in my eyes than any child growing up to become a murderer who presented signs from a young age (killing animals for example). A well documented phenomenon. There is something very clearly not right there.

Where did I say 'so much sympathy'? I do find it interesting, this twisting and escalation of others' language, although of course it makes it harder to have a sensible conversation.

What is your understanding of reproductive coercion and the forms it can take?

She has Bangladeshi citizenship by birth. The only way to not have the right to citizenship by birth is by renouncing it. Which Begum never did. She doesn’t need to “qualify for it”, she has it by birth. She also never registered as a citizen of Bangladesh, but that isn’t the same as renouncing or not having citizenship either.

I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with in particular but if it's me than I respect your learning about grooming and radicalisation even if I stand by the points I made in my post (because, let's face it, we should make our minds up using critic thinking based on information we have access to and I don't know the details of what you've learned).

However, if it wasn't clear enough in my post: I don't believe she feels remorse, I think she's very self absorbed and lacks the ability to think outside herself and see the seriousness of her crimes. Whatever the reasons for all this, I believe she should face a trial and the result of that ought to be life imprisonment in a top security prison.

I still don't agree with unilaterally removing someone's citizenship,it undermines the law and justice of this country for all of us.

*by birth, I mean she has had citizenship from the moment of her birth via descent from her mother.

How on earth can anyone defend her, Christ no the wonder this country is on its knees. A 15yo girl is not stupid, and why would you want to get pregnant in the middle of a war with no food to sustain your baby?
It's not defending her to say she should return to the UK, the country that failed to protect her from being groomed for terrorism when she was a child to face the UK criminal justice system.

Based on the idea that 15 year olds know everything and have fully functioning brains, and are immune to grooming and manipulation and nobody has any obligation to safeguard them, we better start passing laws that day children can't be groomed for crime as they know exactly what they're doing. Let's say children should be able to have tattoos, and gamble, and consent to marrying adults because they know what they're getting into and by 15 what's the problem? While we're at it deciding that children make fully informed consenting decisions, let's decide victims of CSE aren't victims because they chose to be sexually exploited and say that adults should be free to have sex with children because the children know what they're doing.
Let's make children responsible for their own grooming because they totally asked for it right?

Well in a scale of 0-100 my sympathy is zero and yours isn’t which in my opinion is too much.

With regards to pregnancy coercion I don’t think it exists here. She had extremist religious beliefs that the men are 100% in charge. It’s the life she wanted and chose.

You are 100% wrong, wrong, wrong. Her citizenship was stripped lawfully IAW the 1981 Nationality Act, section 40, and and upheld by the U.K. Supreme Court over a year ago. She has no further avenue to appeal.

• She wasn’t left stateless as she was born with Bangladeshi citizenship.
• The Supreme Court upheld the stripping of her British citizenship as lawful- it doesn’t matter what quotes you post from her defence, the court ruled and she lost.
• The Human Rights activists complaining about U.K. law has nothing to do with the current U.K. law or U.K. courts which uphold the our law. Quoting them isn’t proof of unlawful stripping of her citizenship either.

@LolaSmiles so at what age should children be criminally responsible then.

A 15yo who was a victim of CSE can not be held to blame for raping a 12yo girl then? Or how about stabbing someone to death as they had witnessed dv at home?

Come on stop making excuses for her.