New series tonight at 9pm ITV - Anne

[Mydoghealsmyheart]

It’s on over 4 consecutive nights I think. Haven’t seen anything about it other than on the tv schedule.

A photo of dying fans crushed up against the fence.

I think I've seen that pic when I first became interested in Hillsborough. And I'm sure it's one of the pics showed to us when starting as a steward.

@bottleofbeer

It was to protect the police (top brass, they'd have thrown the bobbies under a bus), the FA who held such a big match in a stadium whose away end was known to be far too small/not enough turnstiles, the council, no safety certificate etc...

Establishment arse covering. It was a bonus to them that it was predominantly Liverpool families, the Tory government hated them. Duckenfield gave a bad order to open gate C without anybody directing the fans to empty pens, he realised what he had done and the cover up was underway while people were still dying.

He said fans rushed the gates, so to perpetuate that lie he refused to let a fleet of ambulances which were OUTSIDE onto the pitch as he said they were still "fighting". Initially it was thought 41 could have been saved but the estimate is closer now to 58 (I think) there were ambulances outside (keep letting that sink in).

Kids like Kevin just needed a tracheostomy. He died, as did many others when they would have survived.

How is that not manslaughter? Easy. They were Establishment. The law doesn't apply.

Bastards 😡

@User135644

That makes sense about owing South Yorkshire police.

And still
No true justice delivered

I always find the ‘ticketless fans’ excuse bizarre. The police and fans were still in bloody charge and shouldn’t have allowed that to happen.

Not that it did happen- I’m staying there’s no logic in dismissing the tragedy with that excuse.

On the documentary, one of the fans says the police were trying to take tickets off the fans afterwards. She refused to give them their ticket as she said she knew why they wanted them i.e. to pretend lots of fans didn't have tickets.

It's happened again with Grenfell. Watch the situation closely, listen to what they are saying. The establishment and the families and surviours. It's so easy when it's not your home town and you don't know anybody involved to think how awful it was then carry on.

If the country had been watching more closely and listening to the people like Anne, it may never have taken so long. To this day people are only just learning the truth.

This can happen to anybody. You are expendable. Don't let that happen x

So true about grenfell too

Yes very good point about Grenfell.

If they had come clean at the start and told the truth the poor families could have grieved then and not had to fight for justice for so long.
The thatcher government had no time for Liverpool, documents came out a few years ago that showed discussions between Mrs thatcher and Geoffrey Howe on how they were supporting a managed decline in the city.
My husband was at the match. He told me that the club had complained that the venue was not suitable and it had nearly happened the year before. Typically no notice was taken from people who actually knew what they were talking about.

@Cassimin

What would be the aim of a managed decline? To get people to leave the city and sell the property/ land for regeneration?

The government thought that their recourses would be better spent elsewhere.
Industries had closed down, Liverpool in the past had always been a very important city. The docks were a massive employer.
In the 80s they had mass unemployment, after the riots they needed major investment.
The Tories knew there was very little chance of them getting many votes in the city so they just weren’t bothered.
The managed decline ‘secret’ document can be viewed on line.
The present government is no better.
Boris wrote a piece about the Liverpool people complaining that they are victims.

Resources not recourses!

Exactly it nearly happened twice before but with a different man in charge. I wonder whether it was asked what changes had been made to stop it happening again?

If only they had kept the previous Sgt in charge I thing things would have been different.

100s of police just standing there doing nothing. Obviously that must have been an order but why?

I wonder if the supporters were from Sheffield they would have done the same!

@Cassimin

The government thought that their recourses would be better spent elsewhere. Industries had closed down, Liverpool in the past had always been a very important city. The docks were a massive employer. In the 80s they had mass unemployment, after the riots they needed major investment. The Tories knew there was very little chance of them getting many votes in the city so they just weren’t bothered. The managed decline ‘secret’ document can be viewed on line. The present government is no better. Boris wrote a piece about the Liverpool people complaining that they are victims.

I’m from Liverpool. And I’m sure the Tories didnt want much to do with us.

I’m not a fan of former mayor joe Anderson mind.

2,000 fans arrived at 2.40. Kick off was 3. It's said by the time they had all gotten through the turnstiles it would be 3.20.

They wouldn't delay the match. So it was agreed to opened gate c which wasn't manned and people went directly into pens 3 and 4 as these were directly at the bottom of the tunnel.

Anyone know why they were late?

The commander of previous matches was suspended for a practical joke that went too far. He did know what he was doing though. His name was Brian Mole. You can probably find the story of said practical joke online. As I recall it wasn't a funny one (and I love a good piss take as much as anyone) but how awful that it basically happened in part due to a stupid joke a few weeks before.

Late? There were roadworks on the Snake Pass. And no form of management to get them inside on time and/or safely.

Usually a match would be postponed for a few minutes. That wasn't abnormal at all.

@bottleofbeer

The commander of previous matches was suspended for a practical joke that went too far. He did know what he was doing though. His name was Brian Mole. You can probably find the story of said practical joke online. As I recall it wasn't a funny one (and I love a good piss take as much as anyone) but how awful that it basically happened in part due to a stupid joke a few weeks before.

Hi yes I know all about the joke. He was said not to be part of it.

@RevolvingPivot

2,000 fans arrived at 2.40. Kick off was 3. It's said by the time they had all gotten through the turnstiles it would be 3.20.

They wouldn't delay the match. So it was agreed to opened gate c which wasn't manned and people went directly into pens 3 and 4 as these were directly at the bottom of the tunnel.

Anyone know why they were late?

I thought the build up outside and the need to open the gate was because there was no organisation or queuing system. There were only a few turnstiles and they weren't getting those who had arrive early/on time through quickly enough so it built up.

I thought the build up outside and the need to open the gate was because there was no organisation or queuing system

It was partly that but also because, of the two teams playing, LFC had the vastly larger fan base but were allocated the smaller Leppings Lane end of the ground so there was always going to be bottle necks/crowds building up as there just wasnt enough turnstiles for the volume of fans (that they knew would be arriving) and no contingency plan had been put in place to try and mitigate this - eg opening the gate earlier and having stewards at that entrance to check tickets in the same way they were doing via the turnstiles and increase the flow of fans into the stadium at a more regulated and steady flow.

When it got to just before kickoff and fans still weren't in the ground, rather than delaying kick off for 20/30 minutes (as had been done in the past and was not an unusual request) the police made the decision to open the exit gates to allow the fans in quicker but without first closing the gates that lead directly into the (already almost full) pens that were directly in front of that gate.

If they'd closed the access to the tunnel to those pens then fans coming in would have had to go round to other areas, but the fans coming in through the gate naturally went towards the first tunnel so they could get in to the terrace for kick off, assuming that since the tunnel was still open there was still space for them.

@melj1213

I thought the build up outside and the need to open the gate was because there was no organisation or queuing system

It was partly that but also because, of the two teams playing, LFC had the vastly larger fan base but were allocated the smaller Leppings Lane end of the ground so there was always going to be bottle necks/crowds building up as there just wasnt enough turnstiles for the volume of fans (that they knew would be arriving) and no contingency plan had been put in place to try and mitigate this - eg opening the gate earlier and having stewards at that entrance to check tickets in the same way they were doing via the turnstiles and increase the flow of fans into the stadium at a more regulated and steady flow.

When it got to just before kickoff and fans still weren't in the ground, rather than delaying kick off for 20/30 minutes (as had been done in the past and was not an unusual request) the police made the decision to open the exit gates to allow the fans in quicker but without first closing the gates that lead directly into the (already almost full) pens that were directly in front of that gate.

If they'd closed the access to the tunnel to those pens then fans coming in would have had to go round to other areas, but the fans coming in through the gate naturally went towards the first tunnel so they could get in to the terrace for kick off, assuming that since the tunnel was still open there was still space for them.

It just seems crazy. Surely the meeting they had before must have discussed this. I know the sgt was new however the regular police would have worked at matches before. Why was no one directing people into the other ones.

Duckenfield was sat in the box and had a radio. I just can't understand why he didn't tell them to shut the gate to 2 and 3.

Either he wasn't looking, didn't care or has serious learning difficulties.

From what I understand it's because he didn't know the ground at all. He hasn't looked at a ground map before hand, hadn't visited it and looked at potential problems and hasn't looked at previous methods used successfully during other football matches at the ground. He had signed off the plan for the day without reading it properly.

There was one tried and tested method used where the tunnel to the pens behind the goal- where the crush happened, was closed off and then the gate was open. He didn't know that tunnel was the first thing the fans would see as they opened the gate and head down there. So he didn't know to shut it off first.

He also had disappeared in the few hours between the briefing and the match and still hasn't said where he was. The briefing was all about controlling the fans and what to do with expected violence and drinking. He hadn't made any plans for crowd safety. That was his complete focus on the day.

Plus there was a lack of radios so poor communication. Apparently the very experienced previous police officer in charge used to go around Pre-match talking the the officers about the situation, observing the environment and the crowd. He just stayed in the box. Plus, the other police officers in charge of the outside crowd were also very inexperienced.