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Telly addicts

White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

859 replies

Dogleg · 30/12/2019 21:04

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/02/2020 16:07

This blog about the gun used is interesting. He concludes:

'If Sheila Caffell committed those murders she is, and would remain entirely unique in the UK. As a real life, hideous version of Lara Croft. she would be the only female, gun slay mass murderer with no knowledge of firearms that has ever existed in this country since the invention of gunpowder.'

He talks about what it takes to reload and fire the type of gun used, which is pretty convincing evidence against Caffell doing it imo.

LordOfTheWhys · 03/02/2020 17:45

That was an interesting blog TheCountess - thanks for sharing. I didn't really understand his point about JB possibly using a different magazine . Did he mean there was a larger magazine that could have been attached and therefore provided all the bullets without having to swap new magazines in and out?
I've always found it odd that there were no bullets left in the rifle. Did the murderer shoot all the bullets just in case there were prints left on them?

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 17:50

countess

Yy - that's the thing about this case isn't it - It's just not feasible that it could have been Sheila. Neville would have easily overcome her (6ft 4 strapping ex-military man). Plus the fact he'd been beaten - Sheila apparantly loved her dad and had a good relationship with him - it would've maybe seemed more likely her if her mum had been beaten (as Sheila had issues with her)
And when you take Sheila out of the equation - it leaves only JB.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 17:54

Lord I think he did that to make it seem like Sheila "went berserk" as he put it.
Or maybe he went a bit crazy himself in the heat of the moment. And he couldn't take the risk of any of them surviving could he?

JediJim · 03/02/2020 17:56

Not sure about all the bullets, why so many shots were fired. Not firing them due to finger prints could be possible but then the shooter could have simply taken the un used bullets with them away. Or make it look like a rampage , hence the Sheila theory.
Wasn’t JB convicted on being guilty beyond reasonable doubt? Circumstantial evidence rather than forensics.
JB acted odd after the murders and didn’t he smile after being arrested? Surely he must have thought his behaviour would cause suspicion but I guess he wasn’t mentally right was he?

ToEarlyForDecorations · 03/02/2020 18:01

I think he fully intended to be the sole heir. There may well have been some unplanned moments during the murders but he meant there to be no survivors in the farmhouse that night before he staged the scene to his advantage before leaving.

LordOfTheWhys · 03/02/2020 18:05

Ah, I didn't explain my question well. I think he shot lots of bullets to make it look like a 'crazy' person did it.
But he could have fired 23 or 21 - it would still have looked a lot. Yet, he seems to have made a decision to use every last bullet. I just wondered why. I don't know enough about loading guns. Would his prints have been on the bullets or only on the magazine?

JediJim · 03/02/2020 18:49

I seem to recall JB admitted that his prints would be on the gun as he had used it before, IIRC.

JediJim · 03/02/2020 18:51

I think sadly only JB himself is the only one that knows the whole truth, it’s impossible for anyone else to really know isn’t it?

ToEarlyForDecorations · 03/02/2020 20:32

He will go to his grave protesting his innocence. He wants this, 'mystery' to run and run. Similar to the identity of Jack the Ripper and any other, 'talking point' mystery crime that's been around for ages.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 20:34

I think it’s a control thing. If he admits to it he’s no longer got that hold over people - he knows the police and general public have been puzzling for years over certain aspects of the case. He enjoys being the only one who knows. And he will go to his grave knowing there will still be people wondering if he was wrongly jailed and feeling sorry for him.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/02/2020 20:42

Yes, as long as there are mysteries about it he will keep getting a stream of letters from people who think they can ask him the right questions and get him to tell them the missing piece of information so they can solve it. It definitely gives him a power he wouldn't otherwise have.

ToEarlyForDecorations · 03/02/2020 20:50

'It definitely gives him a power he wouldn't otherwise have.'

Exactly. That's what it's all about. His insistence of his innocence. His website. His fan club. The endless theories.

However, why was his sentenced changed to a whole life tariff a few years after his original sentence ? Nobody (except the government) knows.

RapidRainbow · 03/02/2020 20:56

Well there is one fact that has emerged here that seals Sheila's innocence.

If every bullet was used then they were shot after she was killed.

She wouldn't have known she would need two bullets for herself.

She wouldn't have counted the shots to make sure she saved some.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 21:01

rapidrainbow

Genius! - Hasn’t anyone else thought of that?

JediJim · 03/02/2020 21:33

I think his original sentence was a minimum of 25 years. When Michael Howard was Home Secretary, he handed JB a whole life tariff. Maybe a case of the Tories being tough on crime? Who knows...
JB cannot ever admit his guilt because as said that would end the mystery and end any appeals.
Shooting five people dead including two children would result in never being released. Why would he admit to that?!

TheresWaldo · 03/02/2020 21:44

Like pps, I wonder how Sheila could have been shot laying down like that. It's possible she could have fainted or something with shock, but that's not something that could have been counted on to happen.

ToEarlyForDecorations · 03/02/2020 21:52

I think it got out of hand on the night of the murders.

JB was not expecting his Dad to stagger downstairs to the kitchen after being shot or a fight to ensue with him in the kitchen which required further shots to be fired to kill him.

Sheila went into her parents' bedroom because she heard something ? JB came back upstairs and shot them both. He then went into the boys' bedroom and shot them.

Or not ? Apparently the order in which they were murdered is not known publicly.

LordOfTheWhys · 03/02/2020 22:02

I thought the order wasn't known at all but it would make more sense if it was known but the police and courts didn't release it. Then it can be used to ascertain inside knowledge if there are ever any other revelations.
Perhaps JB will confess on his deathbed just to 'prove' how clever he was and how no-one ever guessed exactly what happened.

DuckWillow · 04/02/2020 07:08

Carol Ann Lee posts a theory about the order of the shootings in her book.

I think you’re right @ToEarlyForDecorations and that order makes sense. Neville was always going to be his biggest threat.

By the number of bullet casings upstairs it’s known that the initial injuries Neville received were inflicted there, The final four fatal shots took place downstairs.

It makes sense that Sheila May have wandered in to her parents bedroom if she heard a scuffle. At this point it’s not known if June had already been shot. However if she had then the first shot which seriously injured Sheila might have caused her to pass out.

Jeremy then goes and kills the children before coming back to discover Sheila still alive at which point he shoots her in a final shot which kills her. He then stages the scene.

According to Julie Mugford he told her a hitman carried out the murders and that Neville had been difficult as he fought back.

I can’t begin to imagine what it must be like to know someone you love did something so awful. She must have been terrified. I have to say though that had that been me then seeing two six year old boys shot dead would have had me going straight to the police after viewing and identifying them. I don’t think she was thinking straight though which perhaps explains it.

Oulu · 04/02/2020 08:09

Re the red paint from the mantelpiece - I read something saying that there is a spot of red visible underneath in some of the photos. Bamber's team tried to explain it away by saying it was a flake of nail varnish off Sheila Caffell, but given that nail varnish just didn't flake like that and her nail varnish was perfect, it indicates how desperate they are.

Oulu · 04/02/2020 08:11

Wasn’t JB convicted on being guilty beyond reasonable doubt? Circumstantial evidence rather than forensic

Everyone who is convicted of a crime is convicted on the basis that they have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt: it doesn't mean that the evidence was circumstantial.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 04/02/2020 10:05

Well there is one fact that has emerged here that seals Sheila's innocence

If every bullet was used then they were shot after she was killed

She wouldn't have known she would need two bullets for herself

She wouldn't have counted the shots to make sure she saved some

Did anyone else have an explanation for this (assuming it was sheila?) - did it come up at all?

ToEarlyForDecorations · 04/02/2020 11:03

Perhaps JB will confess on his deathbed just to 'prove' how clever he was and how no-one ever guessed exactly what happened.

I wondered if he would, but, perhaps not. It would suit his ego for people to still be discussing this in one hundred years time. He's got his notoriety which he wants to hang on to. Which is why he keeps peddling his story. Like a child that has been caught out and is, 'bang to rights' but still bleats that they didn't do it.

It's really all he's got. I imagine he's furious that he was found guilty. He keeps pushing his version of events just to keep people talking about him.

LordOfTheWhys · 04/02/2020 11:31

If you were Julie or Colin or any of the other relatives, you'd be terrified of him being released.