The Nights Watch..Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 2, 22 April UK 2AM / US 9pm Spoilers after 2AM

[TheLazyDuchess]

Ep 2 "A Knight Of The Seven Kingdoms"

I loved the Danny and Sansa scene, and cried at the Brienne scene. I thought Danny would take Jons news better, oh dear...

And Arya and Gendry! I predicted it and yet was still surprised.
I loved the Danny and Sansa scene, and cried at the Brienne scene. I thought Danny would take Jons news better, oh dear...

And Arya and Gendry! I predicted it and yet was still surprised.

How did Rob find out?

The Starks suspected Bran was pushed after the attempted attack on him with the Catspaw dagger by a man sent by the Lannister’s. LF told Cat the dagger belonged to him but had been won by Tyrion in a bet.
They figured out Bran may have seen something he shouldn’t. And also that Jaime hadn’t gone on the hunt with Robert Baratheon that day. With the rumours about him & Cersei they put 2&2 together

and in the room found one of Cersei's long blond hairs, at the same time Ned was putting two and two together at a Kings Landing regarding Cersei's blond children

Thank you - I do remember this now.

Just an idea that came up in a podcast I was listening to:

The song that Pod sang was about Jenny of Oldstones. She was a low born woman that Duncan the Small (son of Aegon V and the Prince of Dragonstone) fell in love with. He married her and, in the process, had to give up his claim to the iron throne. He became known as the Prince of Dragonflies.

Both Jenny and Duncan died in the tragedy at Summerhall when the king tried to hatch a dragon egg using wildfire to fulfill a prophecy made by the Ghost of High Heart (a woods witch who is proabably one of the children of the forest) to Jenny that the Prince that was Promised would be born to Aerys. Prince Rhaegar was born at Summerhall around the time of the tragedy.

Could this foreshadow Jon giving up his claim to the throne in favour of Dany and then dying (or both of them dying) due to wildfire?

Could this foreshadow Jon giving up his claim to the throne in favour of Dany Or the other way round, even?

The prince that was promised was Azor Ahai. Didn’t he have to stab Nissa Nissa through the heart to temper his flaming sword, which he then used to defeat the others.
So I’m going with Jon sacrifices Dany

PreseaCombatir I’ve always thought that. However, it could be that Rhaegar was the TPtwP and Lyanna was Nissa Nissa, which would make Jon Lightbringer.

I often get confused between TPtwP and the Last Hero.

I often get confused between TPtwP and the Last Hero

Just confusing this one a tad more - just because I'm geeking out and operating under the assumption that GRRM is well researched and smart AF:

Have we considered the possibility that the Prince That Was Promised and Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are, just, ... stories and archetypes rather than predictions of in-universe prophecies?

Bear with me on this one ...

So, from a story telling perspective: aren't they basically ... archetypes? Or, a tad more specifically: hero archetypes?

Now, I've literally been to ridiculously expensive trainings given by ridiculously smart folks on these in order to help me sell more IRL. And the gist of the whole situation was, in a nutshell: "look, this kind of stuff isn't realistic - but it's universally relatable".

So ... what if the GoT universe happens to adhere to the same basic rules? I.e. that archetypes are intuitively appealing but ultimately not a reflection of real life?

I may be off here. In fact, I suspect I am. But wouldn't it be kind of awesome if the whole story ended up resolving itself in a "yeah, so, welcome to adulting, where fairy tales don't really dictate outcomes" sort of ending?

I'd quite enjoy thay, I think even if Dany gets to rule, and I kind of dislike her at this point, but she's OP and it'd be logical as opposed to epic.

However, it could be that Rhaegar was the TPtwP and Lyanna was Nissa Nissa, which would make Jon Lightbringer
Oh, I like that!

But wouldn't it be kind of awesome if the whole story ended up resolving itself in a "yeah, so, welcome to adulting, where fairy tales don't really dictate outcomes" sort of ending?

I think GRRM is quite into his prophecies though, but I think he likes them be realised in unusual ways.
Eg, ‘the mountains will fall’ could come true by Gregor Clegane being killed (first example I could think off)
So the prophecy may be fulfilled but it may not be in exactly the way we think, or an exact replica of the stories for the past, it might be more metaphorical.

So the prophecy may be fulfilled but it may not be in exactly the way we think, or an exact replica of the stories for the past, it might be more metaphorical.

First example that springs to mind is the Ghost of High Heart’s prophecy about seeing Sansa slay a savage giant in a snow castle. The obvious scene is where she builds the replica Winterfell at the Eyrie and then rips Sweetrobin’s doll apart. However, Some book theorists correctly (if the show is to be believed) predicted that Sansa would cause the downfall of Littlefinger at Winterfell based on a throwaway line of his about his original house sigil being the Titan of Braavos.

Personally, the whole series has become a bit like Brexit for me. I like talking about character motivations, history and current events but have totally given up trying to predict the future as I’m invariably wrong.

I do think Dany is unlikely to sit on the Iron Throne as the ‘one true ruler’ at the end of the story. The autobiographical nature of the character for GRRM suggests that she’s likely to achieve some important narrative goal which does not lead to her reclaiming some ‘birthright’ that she believes has been stolen from her.

I’m probably wrong about that too.

I did wonder if the song was a different kind of for shadowing! Here is a story about two lovers who gave up power for love, now watch two pick love over power will it end the same?

I like the twist on the Prince that was promised theory they haven't made much of prophecy or stories/legends in the show have they? Or have I forgotten it! I wonder if that is because it's to revealing or not relevant?

I'm wondering if something is going to happen to raise an undead army against the Night King, with all the old Starks fighting for the living. There's been a lot of emphasis on killing the Night King and all the others dying. I wonder if someone else might somehow be able to raise the dead and create an army of their own. No idea who the 'someone else' might be, mind! Possibly Beric or Jon - something to do with them already having died? Or Melisandre?

I'm also thinking that the 'What is dead can never die' motto might turn out to be significant. Possibly in relation to the Mountain. Perhaps he might finish up saving the day!

GRRM is very good at seeding things for much later pay-off, so a lot of these repeated themes/phrases might turn out to be significant.

I'm also thinking that the 'What is dead can never die' motto might turn out to be significant. Possibly in relation to the Mountain.

That would make Jon just as likely, surely. He's technically also a zombie. But he's a Targ/Stark and the Mountain is a Clegane. "What is dead may never die" is the religious motto of the Drowned God and as such strongly associated with the Iron Islands. Unlikely, but who knows.

You all made me think about the Winterfell crypts. Technically the old Stark kings were called the Kings of Winter.

Does anyone know how Lyanna's death was explained away when Ned brought Jon home? Why haven't more characters put together that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, Ned came home with a mysterious baby.

I keep forgetting Jon died... There's got to be some ongoing ramifications from that!

I definitely think there is ‘old magic’ in the crypts - the same that projected the Wall and the cave (until Bran was marked).

There has been lots of references to the swords across the laps of the statues in the crypts and how that indicates the denial of guest rights.

My guess is that the crypts become ‘unsafe’ during the episode so those hiding have to leave, but I think an army of undead Starks is unlikely. Plus, everyone in the crypts would literally be dead, and I can’t see them killing off Varys quite yet.

I think most of the stuff in the show related to prophecy involved Melissandre and Stannis. Very little discussion of Azor Ahai, the Great Ohter and the Long Night has taken place. Then again, the white walkers are very much more ‘in your face’ in the show than they are in the books.

Does anyone know how Lyanna's death was explained away when Ned brought Jon home? Why haven't more characters put together that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, Ned came home with a mysterious baby.

Hed was ‘away’ at war for quite a while. Established propaganda was that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and she died in the process. Only Howland Reed was witness and remained alive, and he has been absent in the show (and books up to now).

Ned returned with a baby with an unknown mother. Many assumed it was Ashara Dayne’s (who later died by probable suicide). The baby had been raised by a wet nurse. Ned never discussed the mother with anyone.

Did anyone see Varys at all in the second episode? I can't recall him being in any scenes, so where is he?

Yes Varys was in the background at the war table.

Varys was also there when Tyrion said one if you two will be wearing this (the hands badge) - he was talking to varys and jorah. He does seem massively sideline from the start of the show though.

Also Ned lived away in the Vale for years even before the war. Ned left at the ahe if 8 and returned as a lord at 20. People did not know him in Winterfell any more. He was best mates with the ladies' man Robert Baratheon who was also Jon Arryn's ward. The original Stark heir, Brandon, had dalliances all the time. When Ned brought home a baby boy who had the distinctive Stark look, people accepted it.
Plus everyone knew how they loved each other with Ashara Dayne. Then she supposedly killed herself when Ned suddenly married Catelyn and it all made sense.
Varys has not seen Jon and Aemon was blind, so they probably would have known somehow. Ned did his best to hide Jon from Robert, so he must resemble Rhaegar.

IIRC in the books they keep reiterating how Jon really looks like plain and an archetypal Stark, much more so than Catelyn's children, another reason to despise him. So I don't think he resembles a Targaryen in any way.

SapatSea yes, I recall that Jon and Arya both have the ‘Stark look’ of the long narrow face. Arya is nicknamed ‘Arya Horseface’. She is described as reminding Ned of Lyanna.

Of Jon Snow: The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Of Arya: Sansa had gotten their mother's fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse.