Madeleine documentary

[mentallyfacked]

New documentary due to be released on Netflix on Friday.

I've covered this subject quite extensively while I was studying law. I will be watching with a heavy heart, it is just one of those cases I can't let go of sadly.

Anyone else going to be watching?

Blimey peridito- do you want me to go out and buy the book?! I have read it. I know what it says and am hoping someone can link to it. It’s not a quote from someone else, or something that’s paraphrased. I’m sorry that I can’t link to it (and I said I don’t own the book when I first mentioned it because I knew someone would ask for a link!) but that doesn’t mean it’s not true

Surely it's unreasonable to expect the McCanns when they are talking or writing about their daughter's dissapearance - which they believe was an abduction and have no reason to believe otherwise - to always qualify their remarks with a statement to the effect that abduction hasn't been proven/we don't know what happened /something else could have happened / but some people disagree with us and believe she wandered off ?"

But they were so wedded to the idea of abduction that they set up their fighting fund with the specific aim of finding her abductor. Which would technically hobble them if they wanted to spend that fund on pursuing an alternative theory.

That's tunnel vision.

Kate admitted in an interview that Madeleine told her that she and Sean were crying for her the night before. She asked her mummy why she hadn't come when she cried.
A neighbour upstairs confirmed a child / children was crying for mummy the night before the abduction but for longer than 30 mins ( puts a doubt over how often they were checking ).
I have never understood Kate saying that when she remembered this she suddenly thought it was relevant and a possible earlier attempt at abduction .
I find that a huge leap to make personally . Kids cry for all manner of reasons.
I think this detail adds to the antagonism people feel over the children being left alone subsequently tbh and certainly doesn't help public opinion towards the parents.

Its a very odd leap to make. But then I find it very odd that you would leave your children again the next night after you know they’ve woken up and been crying for you.

Cole sorry I only saw these 2 posts where you linked to the metro and daily mail and a you tube Crimewatch video .
I must have missed the link to their own site .

ColeHawlins Wed 20-Mar-19 13:09:03
metro.co.uk/2018/11/27/madeleine-mccanns-parents-reject-theory-that-she-wandered-off-looking-for-them-8184086/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6429815/Gerry-Kate-McCann-slam-claims-Madeleine-walked-aparment-says-kidnapped.html

ColeHawlins Wed 20-Mar-19 13:17:01
Oh yes, I have the book somewhere. Unless it went to the charity shop. I'll have a look.

There's also this from 15.30 onwards;

m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y&t=1898s

My post at 13.24 @peridito

acciocat blimey back at you , you seem to want to argue so much about whether the McCanns said it was A FACT that M.was abducted.

That it's ok for them to believe it but not to say it's A FACT . .

You do seem to think that them talking about her abduction means that they are saying that it is A FACT .

I really don't get the big deal ,you say it's ok to believe it but not to say it's A FACT . Because that's in some way harmful .I don't get it .

Okay. I found the book.

I'll try one relevant page per post, otherwise it will never load.

First, the discovery;

"I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted."

Page 95.

I think also, given the way this case is treated so differently to any other missing child case, the way the mccanns are so litigious, wanting to shut down discussions they don’t like, prevent the publication of Amaral’s book (though they didn’t manage that) and basically want to sue the shit out of people, it’s a bit rich to constantly promote one particular unproven theory as fact.

MN is actually more daring than it used to be... in the early days, entire threads would disappear the moment anyone mentioned them in a less than possible light.

I don’t see how anyone can deny that this case is treated like no other. If you start up a massive PR operation and actually create a company within days of your daughter going missing, and do everything possible to convince people there is only one possible explanation, you can’t really complain when people point out the inconsistencies and that there are other possible theories too.

Hey, thank you Cole!

Now - I’m sure you have plenty of other things to do, but if you have the time or inclination there’s at least one other reference to her saying she was abducted from her bed!

That should read less than positive light

The neighbour upstairs heard crying from the McC apartment two nights in a a row. Those were the nights she was at home - there could have been a third night of crying but she wasn't there to hear it. She said that the crying went on for at least 1 hr 15 mins with no pause.

The night Madeleine disappeared she was at home but heard nothing.

Was this statement mentioned on the documentary?

There is no way those young children were being checked as often as parents claimed.

Page 124

Page 125

Thanks Cole ,doesn't move the discussion on much though does it ?

The McCanns believe their dtr was abducted ,that's what they say .She was abducted .They don't qualify it by saying that it has not been proven that she was abducted . Why should they ?Nor do they actually say that it's a fact ,which is what I keep hearing .

My point ( lost in the mists of time ) was that I couldn't see why they are criticised for adopting this position nor why it's said they refused to consider other possibilties .

There's even a helpful index entry; "wandered off alone theory, impossibility" that directed me to those last two pages.

Now - I’m sure you have plenty of other things to do, but if you have the time or inclination there’s at least one other reference to her saying she was abducted from her bed!

I've got nothing left to do but invoicing. I always get over involved in a thread on days like these

Thanks Cole ,doesn't move the discussion on much though does it ?

You're a tough customer @peridito

That is the evidence you were asking for, for more than an hour!

Peridito- Well you asked for the evidence, now you’ve got it, you’re complaining!

The McCanns state on their website that their daughter has been abducted. That’s a factual statement to make. They don’t say she might be, or they believe her to to. They state it as fact.

You may personally feel that there’s no difference between belief and fact, but several of us have pointed out how their insistence will have inevitably impacted on public opinion.

re the page from the book posted - explains why Kate doesn't believe it was possible that Madeleine wandered off .

Doesn't quote Kate saying that it's a fact that she was abducted nor does it show Kate insisting that there are no other theories .

acciocat 's argument is -
I have no problem with them believing that’s the most likely explanation.
The problem is that they state it as a fact -
which so far I don't see that they have .

Though I don't actually think it matters if they did ,they're not giving evidence in a court of law and how has the belief altered the investigation anyway ? It's obvious from that extract that the investigation proceeded as if she had wandered off .

So why is the McCanns belief /adherence to Madeleine being abducted such a point of discussion ???

Going back to the point of the kids crying . It is surely quite likely that if Madeleine and her sibling were indeed crying for over an hour Madeleine might well have decided to go and try and find them herself. If a child was that distressed they might well go to search for mummy.
On the other hand it does suggest that the children were not given anything to help them sleep as some suggested.

Tough/accurate ? Take your choice .

This what I asked for

Is there a direct quote somewhere where the McCanns "insist" that there are no other possibilties .?

and

Where do the McCanns say that it is a fact that Madeleine was abducted ?

and the reason why I'm being particular about them using the word fact themselves is because acciocat thinks saying it is a fact ,as opposed to believing it ( her distinction ) is " not harmless " and "a problem "

. "To state something as fact when it isn’t is not harmless and I think has not done their cause any favours"

It's not me splitting hairs but don't say you have a source showing that Kate says it's a fact ,fail to produce one and then tell me I'm complaining .

Peridito: "I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted."

Seems pretty obvious to me that that statement rules out any theory other than abduction. If you “know” something, then it’s not just a passing thought or a possibility. You are saying you know it happened.

There is also a reference in the book by KM saying she knows MM was abducted from the bed. (Though i can’t ask Cole to keep looking - she needs to do her invoices! )

I have a feeling this discussion is just going to go round in circles. You believe that it makes no difference if it’s stated as fact or belief. Others of us disagree and think there is a difference between saying something as a statement of fact and saying it’s a belief or a possibility.

Personally I doubt it’s really influenced the investigation hugely because the Met police aren’t going to listen to what the mccanns say and follow that as the only possible truth! But it is possible that by doggedly promoting just one theory could have influenced who came forward as witnesses in the early days.

I think it’s more about public opinion though, and I’m absolutely sure it’s influenced that. As I said I feel the vilification of the mccanns is a lot to do with their actions subsequent to the event, not simply the fact they left the children alone. The way they refused to cooperate with things they didn’t want to, their huge PR machine promoting just one particular view, the way they want to shut down discussion of any other possible theory.

Of course they can believe what they like. Anyone can.

But to publish it as fact on their website, in their book, and to behave so litigiously towards people who propose other theories takes it beyond their own personal belief.

It really does seem that Jane Tanner's erroneous sighting was instrumental in setting everyone on an abduction theory (it's mentioned again later on - "There was little doubt in my mind then, nor is there now, that what Jane saw was Madeleine's abductor taking her away." )

It really is heartbreaking to read. So understandable.

I feel very sorry for Jane Tanner too.

Though i can’t ask Cole to keep looking - she needs to do her invoices!

Yes you're right. I should employ you as my MN monitor

Peridito - it seems that now you’ve been shown the evidence, you now want to see a quote which actually uses the word ‘fact.’
Can you not see that to write that you know something means that it is a true fact, as opposed to a thought/belief.

KM wrote ‘I knew, I knew that Madeleine had been abducted.’

knowledge
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facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.