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Telly addicts

Butterfly ITV

799 replies

Melamin · 14/10/2018 21:20

Anyone daring to watch? Glitterball

(Did it really have a mermaid in it?)

OP posts:
purpleme12 · 17/10/2018 21:11

But isn't it the child that starts saying they don't want to a boy/girl? Rather than the parent thinking oh they like pink they want to be a girl

morningtoncrescent62 · 17/10/2018 21:16

I finally saw it on catch-up. Very disturbing. Max should have been reassured throughout that he wasn't the problem - the problems as far as I could see were a dysfunctional family, and rigid expectations of what girls and boys respectively should be like, both in society and in his family. I wanted someone to gently, firmly and consistently explain to him that there's nothing wrong with boys liking pink sparkly stuff and make-up, that it's fine for girls and boys to want to play together, and yes, if he wants to wear a dress, why not? No-one seemed to be saying any of that to him. Instead he was told that his non-typical gendered behaviour was a problem and the cause of his dad leaving home - and his manipulative actions (the very understandable result of all this) were OK and would get him what he wanted. So there were multiple problems both at family level and at societal level which could have been addressed, but oh no, let's make the child the problem.

It's only very recently I've come across the charity Mermaids (I hadn't heard of it until people started discussing this programme). How widespread are they? And are schools being offered alternatives? As in, would they be able to get and act upon advice to help them address gender stereotyping, which Max's school seemed to need?

R0wantrees · 17/10/2018 23:37

How widespread are they? And are schools being offered alternatives? As in, would they be able to get and act upon advice to help them address gender stereotyping, which Max's school seemed to need?

Mermaids have had a great deal of influence in schools directly or with a similarly 'affirming' response in Allsorts Toolkit.

There are many threads in FWR identifying the many issues with Mermaids/ Allsorts approach.

TransgenderTrend offer an alterbative approach which as you say challenges homophobia and supports gender nonconforming children and young people.

There is an important guest article by Professor Michael Biggs (Oxford) discussing the serious issues with Mermaids and Butterfly.

Additionally it is worth being aware that the NHS service GIDS (Gender Identity Service) has raised a number of concerns about the program. Its watchful waiting approach is considerably different to that advocated by Mermaids charity.

www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

www.transgendertrend.com/butterfly-a-mermaids-tale/

Guardian article with background and demonstration of the different approaches and school toolkits:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Onlyhappywhenitrains1 · 18/10/2018 00:00

I found the parents way of dealing with Max to be overly shit. I also felt other school kids wouldn't have been that hard on him. Lots of effeminate boys hang with the girls, it's not a big deal. I know a girl who goes to school with a boy that wears full on make up, he's really popular. Kids love lgbt and gender nonconformity, it's cool now.

R0wantrees · 18/10/2018 00:13

Its very much based on Susie Green's recollection of what happened to her child as Jack and then Jackie.

Jackie Green is now 23

CartwheelCath · 18/10/2018 06:50

Found myself watching this as it just came on whilst I was doing other stuff. I had no idea what it was - not seen it advertised as I've been working abroad until a few a days ago.
How many cliches can they squeeze into 1 episode.
I did wonder if I was watching some kind of wierd spoof.
Absolute guff. Will be making a very special effort I dont put myself through any more of this.

Quickerthanavicar · 18/10/2018 07:08

If you don't like it, if you have actually seen it, can you not turn over?

differentnameforthis · 18/10/2018 08:06

@GivenuponHumanity

Not urban dictionary, actually

Oxford Dictionary

Credit me with more sense than to quote that cesspit.

MinisterforCheekyFuckery · 18/10/2018 18:22

But isn't it the child that starts saying they don't want to a boy/girl? Rather than the parent thinking oh they like pink they want to be a girl

Yes, he also talks about hating his genitals and during the scene with the counsellor the parents mention that he has been expressing feelings of identifying as a girl since the age of five.

purpleme12 · 18/10/2018 18:28

Yes. It was just a previous poster was saying about the parents (I think in general she was talking maybe, not just about the programme?) Saying oh he must want to be a girl. And I don't think it's like that

MinisterforCheekyFuckery · 18/10/2018 18:40

I agree purple.

I also don't agree with previous posters that it "normalised" gender dysphoria. Showing something on TV doesn't necessarily mean normalising it. They mentioned that the parents had sought help from a child psychologist from an early age and it was clearly depicted that they were both still very distressed by the situation several years on. It showed the family agonising over what to do for the best and the detrimental impact that the situation had on their marriage. At no point was there any suggestion that this was all perfectly fine and "normal".

R0wantrees · 18/10/2018 19:35

Children absorb parent's atitudes.

In a household that believes in gender stereotypes, children will absorb this.

In a household where there is homophobia, this too will be absorbed.

The issue with the program is that children who like pink, dancing, make-up etc may relate to the central character.

Some parents (especially if they share a belief in sex stereotypes) may come to the conclusion based on these 'proofs' that their child is transgender.

Some vulnerable children will be influenced to believe that they too are 'trans' and as the character Max shows, Social Media will confirm this.

Searching YouTube (as many young people do) 'Am I Transgender?' will bring up many videos that say 'if you are asing the question, you probably are'

This is very serious, with consequences.

FekkoTheLawyer · 18/10/2018 19:57

And media. A few years back (when he was little and all this kicked off with high profile transvestites mouthing off in the press) DS asked me 'mummy, we're you always a girl?.

He seemed a bit disappointed that I wasn't exotic enough to have previously been Dave from Dagenham.

MinisterforCheekyFuckery · 18/10/2018 20:28

So should there be no depictions whatsoever on TV of young people with Gender Dysphoria then?

R0wantrees · 18/10/2018 20:29

How many children or their parents might have been influenced by this CCBC program since it was aired in 2014?

The narrative provided by Leo and his Mum is that a girl who was gender non-conforming, wants short hair and not to wear dresses etc is a boy.

Stephen Whittle a very influential trans rights activist id portrayed (literally) as a superhero:
65,983 views

GunpowderGelatine · 19/10/2018 01:20

5 minutes in and it's mentioned that Max is 'watching his weight'. I mean FFS could the stereotypes be more depressing?

I agree with a PP if Mermaids wanted to nail it they should've supported a show that showed a happy functional family, it's like this programme is a spoof.

TheSteveMilliband · 19/10/2018 10:17

Found this really hard to watch. Max reminded me a lot of my DS who loves dancing, little mix, sparkles, fairy wings and so on.

I've sometimes discouraged him gently from stereotypically "girl" things (clothes, toys). I suggested alternatives because I was conscious of the reaction other kids might have and wanted to make sure he was prepared. I've seen the crushed expression when I have questioned his choices and felt dreadful afterwards. I've always told him that he can play with whatever he wants, he's had birthdays filled with my little ponies, barbies, mermaids and unicorns.

I can't imagine how he'd be if he was treated like Max - "girls things" a dirty secret to keep at home, not being able to dance around exuberantly without censure, being hit and told he shouldn't / can't all the time. Not to mention being made responsible for his parents separation because of his preferences. It wouldn't be at all surprising if he decided being a boy was not for him. Then someone well meaning suggesting he didn't need to be a boy any longer.

I don't doubt there are kids with gender dysphoria, but we don't know enough about how to identify those children. There are so many factors with Max / Maxine outside of intrinsic gender identity. It makes me want to weep that programmes like this seem to be unquestioningly accepting that he is inherently a girl despite all this.

FekkoTheLawyer · 19/10/2018 11:38

You can take a child and brainwash them any which way. Condition them to believe any old nonsense you choose.

I'm certain a great many of these kids would grow up to be gay, Bi or straight. Or have mental issues that mean they dissociate from their physical body and decide that they are a dog or my little pony.

Whatever happened to 'it's a phase - let them get in with it'?

Italiangreyhound · 19/10/2018 17:47

R0wantrees yes the internet is playing a big part in this.

MinisterforCheekyFuckery "So should there be no depictions whatsoever on TV of young people with Gender Dysphoria then?"

Personally, I think TV should tackle all gritty and real issues. But there is not one set of advice with this current phenomenon of veru high numbers of kids confused/ stressed about gender.

Not all gender non-confirming children will be offered puberty 'blockers'. The description of which did not mention very real potential health issues.

There are very strict rules about how suicide is portrayed and talked about in the media. Charities have expressed concern because attempted suicide at 11 is rare. Showing the method was, in my humble opinion, very irresponsible.

So talking about a serious and potentially dangerous topics like suicide, blockers and gender dysphoria in these terms is not a very nuanced way of informing the public about something very serious.

Sometging very real and affecting many young people, mostly young females.

Just so wrong and such a missed opportunity.

Where are the people telling Max it is ok not to like football and it is ok, even good, to want to dance!

Even his loving sister has brought into the idea at 11 that this is who he is.

R0wantrees · 19/10/2018 21:00

This article by India Willoughby is bizarre, irresponsible as well as revealing some racism.
As always its all about India Willoughby:
inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/itvs-butterfly-is-the-best-on-screen-depiction-ive-ever-seen-of-trans-kids-it-was-joyous-to-watch/

Dovei · 27/10/2018 01:27

Honestly this threat is just a thick sea of Transphobic horse shit.

FekkoThePenguin · 27/10/2018 09:47

Yes the threats amd violence against women who question and physical harm done to children really is horseshoe isn't it?

Italiangreyhound · 27/10/2018 10:39

Dovei if you see any trabsphobic comments you can report them.

Aridane · 27/10/2018 10:55

Have there been any other tv dramas about transgender?

Italiangreyhound · 27/10/2018 11:36

Aridane Different for girls is s fabulous tv drama film from the 90s with Rupert Graves.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Different_for_Girls