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Telly addicts

Butterfly ITV

799 replies

Melamin · 14/10/2018 21:20

Anyone daring to watch? Glitterball

(Did it really have a mermaid in it?)

OP posts:
FissionChips · 10/11/2018 12:24

Thank you for answering that Jane, it’s very helpful, I’m glad that you agree that it shouldn’t be rushed.

Janekent3 · 10/11/2018 12:31

BeUpStanding
"Hi Jane. Ok, apologies for assuming the NHS paid for your surgery. What I would genuinely like to understand though is how does having severe gender dysphoria impact your day to day life so significantly that it is classified as a disability?"

Thanks!

It affects me by my constant need to be visually as female as possible; my hair and make up MUST be as perfect as I can get it as I fear that someone will clock my 'differences' with other women and I could come under physical and psychological attack, as I have done in the past many times! That all costs extra money on top of the £100,000, with everything taken into account, I have already had to spend to tackle my condition(s).

The fear constantly leads to depression and a feeling that death is a better option, and then mental health condition click in. Letting you know the full facts, wisely or unwisely but I NEED the general public to understand the GD condition, I suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder which gives me many negative feelings in itself.

Life generally however is now far better than before, and I love life most times of a day, but then can disintegrate into a depressive mess. Negative Challenges / questions about me, like I have suffered on this thread when all I wanted to do was help people understand, does not help, but that challenge is constant, every minute of every day. I will never be free of the prison, but I am free of my cell.

PerverseConverse · 10/11/2018 12:38

Ah. The BPD diagnosis explains much more clearly everything you have said here.

Janekent3 · 10/11/2018 12:46

Datun
"jane I profoundly disagree with everything you have written.
Your GRC doesn't entitle you, the way you think it does. Transwomen can be excluded on the basis of their sex even if have a GRC. The law acknowledges that you are a different sex. It's acknowledges that a certificate is a legal fiction.
And this is why I profoundly disagree with transgenderism. Your sense of entitlement to discomfort women should not be legalised."

You do not give up do you!

You are just so wrong, with your mind so twisted by transphobic thought.

AS a holder of the GRC I AM officially, legally, fully classed as a "Female", as I am on m,y Birth Certificate" I am therefore entitled to be treated as a female in all respects, including receiving the State Pension at the female 'commencement age, not at 65-67 as for men.

It is illegal for anyone to exclude me from a female space unless it is for the reasons of any other woman being excluded. You are obsessed by toilets, but yes this includes discrimination on stopping me using the female ones of those.

This gives a little bit of the law on the subject:
www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

PerverseConverse · 10/11/2018 12:48

How old are you Jane?

PencilsInSpace · 10/11/2018 12:52

... a past legal test case, that I touched on before but was not believed, stressed that any transgendered person pre-gender reassignment and given a GRC MUST use the disabled toilets, not one designated for a single sex.

I think you are referring to Croft v Royal Mail?

The case was an appeal against an employment tribunal decision that a TW had not been constructively dismissed on the grounds of sex discrimination. It was in 2003, so predates both the GRA and the EA.

The TW lost the appeal but the ruling was not that the TW MUST use the disabled toilet, it was that the employer had not been unreasonable in preventing the TW from using the women's toilet and offering the disabled toilet as an alternative for the time being, as the TW was in the early stages of transition.

The judge ruled that the exact time when a TW MUST be permitted to use the women's toilet depended on all the circumstances and was not dependent on having had surgery, although it was reasonable to take surgical status into account. The judge also ruled that the employer could not permanently stop a TW from using the women's toilet, even without surgery, but that it was reasonable for the employer to not give an exact date when they would be permitted to do so.

The rules are different around toilets in the workplace and public toilets. H&S legislation states that single sex toilets must be provided in a workplace unless they are fully enclosed individual rooms. There is no such requirement for public or customer toilets, or any laws about who uses which one. It's mostly governed by extremely strong social convention.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/11/2018 12:54

Ok, apologies for assuming the NHS paid for your surgery

I think jane was saying that the surgery was paid for through the nhs by taxes

Not that the surgery was paid for privately

Apologies if wrong

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/11/2018 12:57

Oh sorry jane

Just reread, and you are referring to the support you have been given as paid for through taxes

Apologies...knew id get hold of the stick

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 10/11/2018 12:58

It affects me by my constant need to be visually as female as possible; my hair and make up MUST be as perfect as I can get it as I fear that someone will clock my 'differences' with other women and I could come under physical and psychological attack

Stripping off in communal women's changing rooms must be very uncomfortable then?

Hyppolyta · 10/11/2018 13:01

Jane you using a female space would lead to other women being excluded.

I wouldnt use a female space if a male was in there. Many women wouldnt.

But you are correct in saying we wont give up, why should we give up defending our own spaces?

PencilsInSpace · 10/11/2018 13:06

AS a holder of the GRC I AM officially, legally, fully classed as a "Female", as I am on m,y Birth Certificate" I am therefore entitled to be treated as a female in all respects, including receiving the State Pension at the female 'commencement age, not at 65-67 as for men.

It is illegal for anyone to exclude me from a female space unless it is for the reasons of any other woman being excluded. You are obsessed by toilets, but yes this includes discrimination on stopping me using the female ones of those.

Section 9(3) of the GRA says that terms and conditions apply. It says your GRC entitles you to be treated as female for all purposes subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation

Which means there are exceptions. Some are in the GRA itself (sports, inheritance, parenthood) and some are in the EA (single sex exceptions). There is ongoing legal discussion of exactly how much weight to give a GRC when deciding whether it is proportionate and justified to exclude a TW from female only space, however it is not illegal in theory to exclude you.

Karon Monaghan QC explained this very clearly when giving evidence to the Women & Equalities Committee a couple of weeks ago:

Q8 Chair: We will have a separate section on single-sex services. Jess is going to cover that a bit later on. Can I ask a particular question of Karon? Do trans women have the same rights as non-trans women?

Karon Monaghan: Yes they do. If they have a GRC they are entitled to be treated as a woman for all purposes, save that there are exemptions under the Equality Act, even in the case of trans women with a GRC. So even trans women with a GRC can be excluded from single-sex services—rape crisis centres and refuges being the paradigm example—because there are exemptions in relation to single-sex services. In addition, even in the case of trans women without a GRC, they have the right not to be discriminated against because of their gender reassignment status.

Q9 Chair: That is the current law?

Karon Monaghan: Yes. If there is a change so that self-identification becomes the route to a GRC and you do not need a diagnosis of dysphoria—whatever gender dysphoria is; it is highly contested, but you would not need two doctors to say and all that sort of stuff—you will not need to change the model of the Equality Act. A trans woman with a GRC will still enjoy protection against discrimination because she is a trans woman, and she will enjoy protection as a woman because she has a GRC, but she will still be subject to the exemptions in relation to single-sex services. Whether or not she has a GRC—this is why, to my mind, self-identification is not particularly relevant to this issue—she can still lawfully be excluded from single-sex services such as rape crisis centres and so on, subject to thresholds being reached. It cannot be an arbitrary refusal: “We’re calling this a single-sex space. You can’t come in.” It cannot be that. It has to reach a certain threshold of proportionality and so on.

Chair: Thank you very much. That is helpful.

Men's and women's pension age equalised last Thursday BTW.

PennyArcade · 10/11/2018 13:08

I'm in work at the moment. Just marking my spot so it's easier to get back to as far as I've read.

I'll be back this evening with my own account of growing up.

In the meantime, Jane, could you have a think about how it feels to be female and let us know, from your perspective. Thanks

NopeNi · 10/11/2018 13:13

BPD explains a fuckload, yes. A member of my family has that, it's breathtakingly difficult to live with, and maybe that's why I don't have sympathy for the endless lies and obfuscation as others do.

And no - I'm not transphobic. I just don't want males in female spaces or taking female resources. Male cannot become female.

I won't and can't lie to appease anyone, even if they're mentally unwell and it would make them feel better. I am genuinely sorry I can't do that anymore, because I have been socialised into being nice so part of me desperately wants to - but I just can't. Lying hurts.

NopeNi · 10/11/2018 13:14

Incidentally if any of my posts have been deleted, MNHQ haven't messaged me to say so, and I can't scroll up easily on the app to see, so that's not good.

Datun · 10/11/2018 13:28

You do not give up do you!

Oh dear, you're serious, aren't you? And you have no idea what that sentence says about you.

I think someone else has shown you that there are still exemptions even with a GRC. Because the law understands you have not changed sex. Strangely, women's rights are very important to feminists. I can assure you, we've done our homework.

You say you have spent £100,000 was it? On making sure that you look as female as you possibly can using makeup because of the dreadful consequences to you of not looking female. And in the same breath note how you like to strip off in a communal female changing room. (Something, incidentally, that women don't really do.). With no respect for the women around you. And seemingly unhesitatingly allowing everyone there to see you, despite the psychological distress should you be 'clocked'.

Completely inconsistent.

I have no doubt that you are a distressed individual. It's immaterial to my profound disagreement that women's rights should be dismantled because of it.

NopeNi · 10/11/2018 13:39

It's the gaslighting element that I can't bear. Years of this sort of crap:

  • "Black is white / inexplicable demand"
  • no it isn't / no you can't
  • "I'll scream and cry and abuse you or say I'll hurt myself until you say it is / do it"
  • okay it is then! / okay I will!
  • "I'm outraged! This person said it wasn't / they won't do it."
  • well, no, obviously not
  • "You don't really believe it either do you? I'll kill myself!"
  • god no, please don't, what can I do, I'll do anything, I believe you, everyone does
  • Next day - "black is now purple as well as white / follow-up completely contradictory demand"

... On and on, and you get to the point where you just can't put up with bullshit from anyone at all because it's actually just them asserting power over you, trying to wipe out reality and play with your head.

They know something's not true, they know you know, but they force it, and then you wonder do they know, what even is reality, and the mind games and walking on eggshells and gaslighting just go on and on.

It might be caused by illness rather than someone's calculated cruelty, but it's still abusive to experience.

Reality exists. Some people's internal perceptions of it as they see it should not be allowed to overrule the rules of reality created to protect others.

Biologifemini · 10/11/2018 13:40

I do think it is fair enough for people to transition how they wish.
But as a scientist, of which there are many of us, it makes no sense - and there’s the rub. When opinion takes over facts, the law Becomes a joke.

A DNA test is pretty common these days, as is identification of someone’s skeleton from its shape (hence why it is so tricky to pass).

if people (everyone) knew this then they might not be so keen to transition with a GRC.

I don’t understand why the law supports this as it is supporting something factually incorrect. Obviously support transitioning but why support collecting invalid medical and social data.

BeyondVicious · 10/11/2018 13:48

I’ve checked, none of my posts have been deleted 😇

Datun · 10/11/2018 13:52

... On and on, and you get to the point where you just can't put up with bullshit from anyone at all because it's actually just them asserting power over you, trying to wipe out reality and play with your head.

This ^.

Which is why the reaction is this:

You do not give up do you!

PerverseConverse · 10/11/2018 14:01

From 2:03 to 2:12. This reminds me of all the tantrum throwers saying they are women.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/11/2018 14:02

I think the person with the most deleted posts on this thread is still jane

So its just as well that she has no problem with the modding

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 10/11/2018 14:06

My deleted post was reinstated on appeal Grin

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/11/2018 14:17

Did you cry empress

Dh did that once when he was stopped by the police for speeding Grin

He was quite young though...and obviously mortified

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 10/11/2018 14:19

GrinGrinGrin

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/11/2018 14:20

Sometimes i think i overshare Grin

I just wont tell him I mentioned it on here...he'll never know