Butterfly ITV

[Melamin]

Anyone daring to watch?

(Did it really have a mermaid in it?)

PennyArcade "I was willing to give Jane a chance to explain, as a woman, what she thinks about women who have no desire to give up their penis, because they also want to be a man - when it suits them. Yet insist on accessing spaces specifically for people without a penis and campaigning for natal women to no longer be called women. My question has not been answered."

Janekent3 said, on "Thu 08-Nov-18 16:55:23"

"Now, the very reasonable question on "Can I ask Jane.... Having been through the traumatic process you have undergone to take away your "maleness", what is your view on "women" (and I use the term loosely), who have no plans to lose their penis, because sometimes they like to identify as female, but other times they prefer to identify as male?"

ONLY trans women who have undergone the full Gender Reassignment with the penis 'removed', should receive a GRC and be able to use female "spaces"

That does seem to answer the question.

Thanks ItalianGreyhound. It seems the answer I was looking for got lost amongst all the waffle.

So Jane it seems you don't want penises invading your space now you're a woman either. As I said before I have no problem with anyone without a penis using female only spaces. Or what has up until now been known as spaces for females only. Do you think that might change soon?

Before you transitioned did you use female toilets or were you happy to use toilets for people with disabilities?

What does it feel like to be a woman? I've been a woman for nearly 60 years. I have no idea what it "feels" like.

Sorry for the questions (and missing your previous reply). This self ID lark and GRC isn't easy to get your head around is it?
Especially when we have people with penises convinced they are women and people who hold a GRC being lumped under the heading 'transwomen' with those who still have their penis. If natal women are no longer allowed to call themselves a woman, has the word 'woman' become extinct?

PennyArcade I don't think your question was really answered though. Yes, Jane did say that only men that have their penises removed should be allowed in the women's toilets but they didn't say what they thought of men that chop and change (unfortunate terminology there) as to when they are men using their penises and when they are women demanding use of our facilities.

@Janekent3 are you going to come back and answer some more please? You said you want us to understand but your engagement is inconsistent and cherry picked. You have a captive audience here so is a shame not to make full use of that.

PerverseConverse:
"Jane did mention mental health issues as a "result of being born with their condition" so I gather they have long term mental illness or psychological issues that make them disabled rather than the cured dysphoria?"

Yes, as can you imagine what my long term, forever condition, with all the anguish of having to live a lie, as not the real inner me and all the negativity of others, has done to me? Gender Dysphoria is now considered a medical condition, not a psychiatric one. But what you go through, a little less in today's society, but going back to the days when no one could help me, or even know about the condition, will always be an effect on my mental health. Some on here are not convinced, and probably will never be, but I am a women screaming to get out, and even with the 'transitional' process completed I still have my battles to fight, as on here. It is mentally exhausting.

My condition is one considered "Severe Gender Dysphoria, and that is the best the medical profession can give as a label. I never give myself that label in my everyday life, as I feel I am just another women; no better, no worse than any other with all of us having our own crosses to bear in life. I am certainly not a perfect women as you that are biological women are, and that still sends me into severe depression and fits of tears. The lack of sympathy on this thread highlights what the future children with GD will have to go through, and I cry now for them. My life is closing, but they have hopefully their 'free' lives to come.

As for the posts deletions, the moderators are following their guidelines, including this one :
www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Some on here are not convinced, and probably will never be, but I am a women screaming to get out,

It might help if you could describe what, exactly, makes you know you're a woman? In your head. The actual thoughts.

A woman screaming to get out but you are a woman? I truly don't understand how you can be living as a woman, say you're a woman, yet have severe gender dysphoria that is affecting your life so much yet you are so happy now. There are so many contradictions in your posts. I wonder at the cost of tears of therapy yet you still cry about actual women being well, women.

DodoPatrol
" I hope to all that's holy that someone, somewhere is doing a longitudinal study of 'trans' children that don't receive any medicalised treatment whatsoever, just psychotherapy, to see what the outcomes are 10-15 years down the line.
We could use the rest of history, before any such treatments were available.
I am quite certain that that was shit for the few. But it might well have been better for the many."

Yes, and my history, going back 60 years, like many other (once estimated at 10,000, is within the domain of medical study. No one has to wait 15 years down the line to see what damage can be done to the individual in not giving the relevant early treatment.

PerverseConverse
"@Janekent3 if you are classed as disabled due to gender dysphoria then how has transitioning worked as surely the whole point of transitioning is to treat and cure the dysphoria? How can you still have gender dysphoria if you say you are a woman and living as a woman? It makes no sense."

Gender Dysphoria is NEVER cured. It will be with me and all the other trans people for life. There is no escape, although full treatment, with all the operations as I have had, only means I have escaped the prison cell, not the prison.

As I say, society still does not allow us to be completely free, and certainly I will have to live without all the extra 'things' a biological woman has.

That makes perfect sense then 🤔

Janekent3 please only engage here as much as you wish to. I can see this is distressing for you.

I wanted to think about the part of the trans population who appear not to have gender dysphoria. Those who simply dress and present as the opposite sex. If this is an option for some surely it should be the option for children.

So medical interventions young should not be an option, IMHO. Since this is an illness of the mind, presumably, what should be offered is age appropriate therapy to help children live comfortably in a kind of socially androgynous state which enables then to make decisions when they are older and perhaps better equipped to do so.

BeUpStanding
"Hang on, you get PIP for gender dysphoria, despite the fact that you're now happier than you've ever been? So the NHS has spent a fortune surgically altering your body, providing you with hormones and presumably also giving psychological support... And then the state supports your living costs because you are now disabled?"

I PAID for all my surgical treatment. The NHS have given me great support as we ARE entitled to it, especially after working hard all my life and paying into the system huge amount of taxes. I am entitled to the support as much as a smoker (I never have) who suffers smoking related illnesses, or a heavy drinker / alcoholic (never have) who requires all kinds of treatment. It is very dangerous to start moaning about the costs to the NHS of the treatment to individuals like me, when many others are costing the NHS far more due to purely their lifestyles, not a major health condition recognised by the authorities.

Janekent3 your description of gender dysphoria makes sense.

In terms of 'Butterfly' - not all trans presenting children will actually have dysphoria. How can we identify the ones that do?

NopeNi :
"Everything I said above still 100% applies.

But my god, I am shockangryshock that some males apparently get disability allowance for feeling bad about their gender - when actual real life women are killing themselves because of lack of help. Are you kidding me???"

Yet another transphobic comment!

Can you explain how it is transphobic?

Hi Jane. Ok, apologies for assuming the NHS paid for your surgery. What I would genuinely like to understand though is how does having severe gender dysphoria impact your day to day life so significantly that it is classified as a disability?

Girlfrommars
"I don't believe she gets pip for gender dysphoria.
Pip is based on symptoms stopping you being able to complete normal tasks. How can gender dysphoria stop you making a meal or walking x yards, especially when you've been transitioned.
I think she's talking poop."

When did I say I was receiving PIP?!!

Yet another assumption on this wild thread!

You said you receive "disability allowance"

Yet another assumption on this wild thread!

You said you get disability benefit, PIP is the disability benefit in the UK.
Hardly a wild assumption

Pip is replacing DLA but for some they can continue to get DLA if they were born before April 1948. If Jane is receiving DLA still then I guess they are at least 70. The assessment is still based on the same things though so how does gender dysphoria cause significant difficulties to warrant disability benefits?

Italiangreyhound:
Janekent3 "As Italiangreyhound, a women who is prepared to listen and wants to find out more which I applaud, has stated no matter how much personal information I impart it will never be enough to counter the obvious transphobia that exists on Mumsnet."

I didn't mention transphobia.
What I said and what I would really like to convey, is that people do not have to believe you or agree with you on Mumsnet. BUT that doesn't actually matter. Because you get to tell your side of the story and people will read it. They will see what you say and how you say it. Jane, some will agree with your take on things, some not. But you can't expect people to always agree.
Can I give an example? I'm a Christian. I used to post on the religion boards here but to be honest it was quite stressful and I just gave up! But if and when I did I would always say that for me religion has been a super positive part of my life, a free choice of mine, as an adult and I've benefited from it.
Other posters might have had very different experiences and where as they cannot alter my experience they can choose not to agree it is true (for them) or true (in general) or even true (for me!)
So we cannot get others to agree with us necessarily on Mumsnet. But we can tell our story without being censored (as long as we stay within Mumsnet talk Guidelines).
I really hope that makes sense and conveys what I want it to convey.

Thanks Italiangreyhound for another good considerate post that is not tearing me apart!
If you re-read my quoted comment above, you will see I did not say you mentioned "transphobia" , but agreeing with you that no matter how much personal info I give out I will not counter the "transphobia" found on Mumsnet.

I am also a Christian, but never a church goer, and will never enter into any discussions on that subject on social media, or anywhere else. That gets an even wilder response than I have received on this thread!!! I agree in free speech, but not when it is highly insulting, hateful, and in this case transphobic. The moderators are applying their guidelines which I for one totally accept.

Jane, do you believe all gender non conforming or dysphoric children should be put on the path to transition?

PennyArcade
"So Jane it seems you don't want penises invading your space now you're a woman either. As I said before I have no problem with anyone without a penis using female only spaces. Or what has up until now been known as spaces for females only. Do you think that might change soon?
Before you transitioned did you use female toilets or were you happy to use toilets for people with disabilities?
What does it feel like to be a woman? I've been a woman for nearly 60 years. I have no idea what it "feels" like.
Sorry for the questions (and missing your previous reply). This self ID lark and GRC isn't easy to get your head around is it?
Especially when we have people with penises convinced they are women and people who hold a GRC being lumped under the heading 'transwomen' with those who still have their penis. If natal women are no longer allowed to call themselves a woman, has the word 'woman' become extinct?"

Yes, I do not want men, that is those with penis's who have no intention, or reason medically, of changing gender in OUR female spaces. I fear men as predators, and when I strip off in the communal female changing room of the health club, or are even just having a pee, I do not want them around!

Yes, hypocritically, I DID use the female toilets before I completed transition, standing in many loo queues at railway stations, because I was in an advance state of change, held a special 'Transgender Card' from the Gender clinic explaining I was transitioning, and felt I was I was no threat to women and I would be in a cubicle (what a relief!).

Would I do that now; probably not as a past legal test case, that I touched on before but was not believed, stressed that any transgendered person pre-gender reassignment and given a GRC MUST use the disabled toilets, not one designated for a single sex.

That is still a hot subject though, as this thread has proved and I certainly do not have all the answers. I just know that I do not want to share my special female spaces with a man / penis. Even as a young child I didn't want to and do not talk to me about showering after sport; I would never do it!!!

FissionChips:
"Jane, do you believe all gender non conforming or dysphoric children should be put on the path to transition?"

Now that is THE BIG one in this debate!!

I would have loved puberty blockers to have been given and stopped the cause of so much future heartache and sorrow. But that is MY case, and I must never speak for each and every trans child of today.

That is a decision that MUST be made by the professional medical and psychiatric specialists in the area of trans gender. Any decision about a child's gender being reassessed is so important that all the facts about that child MUST be considered as a full package. Every check and balances must be made, and the child's situation must be assessed independently from the emotions, negative and positive, of the parents. It is the child who will give the specialists all the facts they need IF they know where to look and what questions to ask.

A particular child's case should have certain qualifiers / markers placed on it, answering questions of when the feelings of being in the wrong body and identifying in the opposite gender first started. 3 to 5 years of age seems typical from my research and knowledge, but there will be exceptions. Those exceptions must then be identified and questioned. I know mistakes can be made which are devastating for them and others involved, and that is why a high degree of certainty about the case being 'right' MUST be fulfilled before any intervention is actioned.

I do not have all the answers. but using my experience as a benchmark, I know that if I had been fully assessed during the ages of 5 to 11 years, to modern specialist standards, I would hopefully have received and stopped the nightmare that was to come.

Early intervention is crucial, but assessment must never be rushed.

Not all GD presenting children will be found to be a person who will WANT full transition and Gender Reassignment.

Yes, I do not want men, that is those with penis's who have no intention, or reason medically, of changing gender in OUR female spaces. I fear men as predators, and when I strip off in the communal female changing room of the health club, or are even just having a pee, I do not want them around!

Yes, hypocritically, I DID use the female toilets before I completed transition,

Breathtaking.

jane I profoundly disagree with everything you have written.

Your GRC doesn't entitle you, the way you think it does. Transwomen can be excluded on the basis of their sex even if have a GRC. The law acknowledges that you are a different sex. It's acknowledges that a certificate is a legal fiction.

And this is why I profoundly disagree with transgenderism. Your sense of entitlement to discomfort women should not be legalised.