Butterfly ITV

[Melamin]

Anyone daring to watch?

(Did it really have a mermaid in it?)

Yes.

Easy to say it won’t be a problem for these children who are being medicalised today when you’ve never had to deal with actual infertility (as opposed to oh woe is me that my role was the male one in the conception of my children).

Mxyzptlk "Here's a question about actual Butterfly - Does anyone know what the relevance of the anorexic girl was supposed to be?"

Interestingly, there is an organisation for eating disorders, I think in USA, called Butterfly.

"To me, anorexia seems very similar to gender dysphoria but I guess the programme makers want us to think they are very different." I think you are right.

PIP/ESA/DLA are all dependent on how something affects someone’s life rather than what the condition is, so in theory sex dysphoria could be included.

Iirc it has been downgraded from a “mental illness” to a “mental condition” in the DSM

Beyond "Iirc it has been downgraded from a “mental illness” to a “mental condition” in the DSM"

Can you explain what that means, please?

I wonder with mental health issues how one quantifies them! I've got OCD. It's very mild and people wouldn't know unless I told them (probably) but I have heard of some people so crippled by the illness that they cannot live a normal life.

With a physical disability too I think there are people registered blind but with enough sight that pepple don't always know they are legally blind.

The difference afaik (based on posts here) is that an illness can be treated, a condition can’t. So say, personality disorders come under “conditions”. Basically imo it’s just wordplay as there could be a discovery made tomorrow that cures the “conditions”. The agenda of that, I couldn’t possibly comment on

Oh that is a very craft change if that is the case!

Strangely to me 'condition' sounds temporary!

The old Depression leaflets that were around when I was a depressed teenager stated that depression was NOT a mental illness. Mental illnesses were those such as schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar. Eating disorders were conditions. Phobias were conditions. Body dysmorphia wasn't really much of a thing back then in the early 90s unless it was as part of an eating disorder but you know when you're anorexic that you're not actually fat; it's just that you feel fat and you'll do anything to get rid of that feeling as it makes your skin itch and crawl and feel too tight and you just want to escape. But anyway, disorder, disease, condition, illness- it's confusing word play. I think disorder is an easier term to understand and would perhaps remove some stigma around schizophrenia and bipolar and other mental health issues. Eating disorders have long been romanticised/glamorised by the media but having had one for many years I can assure anyone they are no fun whatsoever.

Probably a bit random there but it's been a long day and my small one thinks it's still play time :(

PerverseConverse what you say makes perfect sense. I think there is a lot of stigma still around mental health. One of the reasons I do talk about having OCD is because I hope it breaks down some barriers. And often when I mention it others talk about their situations.

What angers me about the whole Butterfly thing is that it's taking what is a normal experience and part of growing up and family life for many, many children and portraying it as a mental health issue and something that needs medicalising and treating. By doing this they are creating mental health issues and medicalised treatments that are totally unnecessary. I hope to all that's holy that someone, somewhere is doing a longitudinal study of 'trans' children that don't receive any medicalised treatment whatsoever, just psychotherapy, to see what the outcomes are 10-15 years down the line. My hypothesis is that 80% or more would grow out of believing they are, or wanting to be, the opposite sex. It would be a start to stop telling children it's possible to change sex. They are being prescribed delusions as a escape from growing up and then medicalising them out of naturally maturing through puberty. Reality is shit at times but since when do we medically treat reality by giving children delusions that we can then surgically and medically treat. Oi doctor! Leave them kids alone!

PerverseConverse is there something of the Peter Pan about it all? For some.

I hope to all that's holy that someone, somewhere is doing a longitudinal study of 'trans' children that don't receive any medicalised treatment whatsoever, just psychotherapy, to see what the outcomes are 10-15 years down the line.

We could use the rest of history, before any such treatments were available.

I am quite certain that that was shit for the few. But it might well have been better for the many.

And often when I mention it others talk about their situations.

Italiangreyhound it's really nice that you talk about your OCD, so that other people talk about their problems.

It sounds very kind and supportive.

Do 12-year olds really wear make-up as Max(ine) was doing?

That family was completely dysfunctional.
It would be more convincing if the boy was allowed to have long hair and pink clothes and skirts and to play with any sorts of toys he wants and then he said that's not good enough and he wants to become a girl.
But when the only way to be able to do what he wants is to not be a boy, he has no option.

"Italiangreyhound it's really nice that you talk about your OCD, so that other people talk about their problems.

It sounds very kind and supportive."

Thank you. I know I can be s people pleaser and that is not always a good thing! However, it has helped me too because I am not ashamed of having mental health issues and actually can't imagine what it is like not having some! My daughter has het own mental health issues and it can be very hard for her and us as parents. But I am grateful for our more tolerant society.

"Do 12-year olds really wear make-up as Max(ine) was doing?"

The character was 11 and no, my dd is not allowed any make up at secondary school.

But it's what girls do! That's an open and shut case then isn't it? 🙄

It sounds very kind and supportive

I agree with datun

I think you sound lovely italian, always very polite and thoughtful

The make-up was awful, but that’s prob the point - that they were emphasising the girly aspect of Maxine.
When DD was 11-12 she wasn’t interested in make-up but those who wore it did not wear bright pink lipstick!

Mrskeats
Gender dysphoria is a disability is the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read on here.
And I’ve been on here many years.
Like you can get disability allowances, a blue badge etc?? Come on now,

Yes, I get a long term disability allowance due to Gender Dysphoria.

Right, I have tried to nicely explain the situation with trans women, or more importantly, the difficulties suffered by trans children, such as in Butterfly. I have tried many approaches, hard, soft, with apologies when I think that may be in order, but still everything I say, someone who is living after 60 years of suffering from it, and speaking from my heart, I am still getting a very negative response.

As Italiangreyhound, a women who is prepared to listen and wants to find out more which I applaud, has stated no matter how much personal information I impart it will never be enough to counter the obvious transphobia that exists on Mumsnet.

I know what the law states and how generally I am treated in everyday life, which is very good, and I will carry on with my police work.

NopeNi
Dust settled?
You marched in, threw temper tantrums and said you were calling the police when people were factual.
As a father of three you callously compared transwomen and your experiences to infertile woman (you don't have the first, tiniest clue, at all).
You lie about treatments and what doctors have told you (that or you've had grossly incompetent doctors).
You lie that males can become female and accuse us of making you cry because we won't agree.
And now you tell people off for their language and try to police the way women express themselves.
Dust settled? Not even close.
That is what you think, ok. But that is all wrong, especially the bit about doctors and changing my Gender. NHS and Nuffield doctors, multiple, are grossly incompetent?!! What do you think Gender Reassignment, recognised in law and by the medical profession means??
How you overate yourself. What do you fear? What is wrong with accepting woman like us were born with boy bits and not the girly bits and brains would accept? Why cannot you have sympathy for what we have top go through and want to help children who may have to to stop the total breakdown of their lives? Why the hostility and the denial of fact no becoming far more accepted within relevant professional fields across the world?

YOU have the problem, not me. As I said before the dinosaurs had to die out, and the human equivalents are now in a flux of change about many previously held views as more evidence comes to light and people like me ask questions.

Yes, I get a long term disability allowance due to Gender Dysphoria

I’m amazed, is it PIP?

Hyppolyta
"Gender dysphoria is not classed as a disability any longer, Jane.
I can see a lot of drawbacks to that, personally, but voicing them got me screamed at for being a bigot."

Yes it is. That is why I receive a disability allowance.

It is a recognised condition, along with my mental health problems caused by the damage done by being born into my condition.

Mxyzptlk
"Do 12-year olds really wear make-up as Max(ine) was doing?!

Yes. I was putting on my mothers make up at 6 years of age.

What is wrong with accepting woman like us were born with boy bits and not the girly bits and brains would accept?

If people thought like that when I was a kid then I’d be an infertile transman right now.